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Cider Digest #1161
Subject: Cider Digest #1161, 4 September 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1161 4 September 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Starch test and ripening (Andrew Lea)
Blanketing cider - force carbonation? (Dan Whitehead)
Re: Carbonating "small" batches of cider (tblists)
Carbonating small batches ("McGonegal, Charles")
Second Last Call for PME Sample ("Gary Awdey")
Re: Starch-Iodine tests (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Starch test and ripening
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 11:02:40 +0100
Trevor wrote:
> I havn't any deytails re
> strength of iodine to use, how to use it etc. Andrew can you supply the
> nitty gritty please for all of us budding chemists?
Well now it all depends on whom you read! Geneva New York (Jerry van
Buren in 'Processed Apple Products') gives 1 g of iodine and 20 g of
potassium iodide per litre of water. Penn State
(http://tfpg.cas.psu.edu/part6/part61a.htm) gives 10 grams iodine and 25
grams potassium iodide per litre. The Ontario people
(http://www.gov.on.ca/OMAFRA/english/crops/facts/00-025.htm) give 2.2
grams iodine and 8.8 grams potassium iodide. That's three versions and
I can't be bothered to hunt down any more! You pays yer money and.....!!
I really haven't any idea which is 'correct'! All these recipes give
the complexed form of soluble 'colourless' iodine, the tri-iodide ion,
which liberates molecular iodine and forms a blue complex with starch
molecules (if they're bigger than about 30 glucose units).
On a more general point about the ripening of fruit for cider, of course
the requirements are very different from dessert. Traditionally in
France and the UK the fruit was stored for weeks or maybe months to
convert starch to sugar but also to soften it by some breakdown and
internal migration of the pectin. This would be important since ,mills
and presses were not so efficient as they are now, and also to give
plenty of
soluble pectin for keeving. Some volatile flavour compounds are also
developed in apples when stored, quite probably after all the starch is
lost. Many years ago colleagues of mine at Long Ashton developed a
quick 'esterase' test for this (hydrolysis of added napthyl acetate, I
think) in connection with work on tomatoes, but I think it may work for
apples too. On the other hand your nose works just as well! So there is
no one answer to the question "when are my apples ripe"? It depends
what you want them for. From the point of view of the apple, the answer
is "when the bears are interested enough to take them away and eat them
and to distribute the seeds"!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Blanketing cider - force carbonation?
From: Dan Whitehead <dantheman50_98@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 1 Sep 2004 05:33:55 -0700 (PDT)
One thing that has always puzzled my inexperienced
mind about inserting gas into a barrel of cider or
wine is the difficulty in bottling the stuff after
deliberately carbonated it.
Is this designed purely designed for if you are
drinking straight out of the barrel or is the
'blanketing' method completely different to the force
carbonation which is so commonly used in hobby beer
(and sometimes cider) making.
I suppose if you are putting the cider in champagne or
crown capped bottles, then no problem. But ordinary
wine bottles?
I get the feeling that I am being incredibly stupid,
so please tell me if I am being as naive as I suspect
I am.
Wassail!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Carbonating "small" batches of cider
From: tblists <tblists@pshift.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Sep 2004 19:59:51 -0400
If you're looking to force-carbonate, that is add CO2 from a canister, I'd
recommend using Cornelius Kegs, a carbonating stone, and a counterpressure
bottle filler if you want to bottled. I've never used the last tool but
would like to toy with one sometime. Be careful, however, as many homebrew
beer rigs are brass; a stainless steel one can be found here:
http://www.brewtree.com/index.html
Basically you fill the keg with cider. The carbonating stone is attached
to the 'gas-in' line. Using a chart, available at homebrew shops, you add
a certain psi to the keg, based on temperature. Let it sit overnight, then
you can bottle with the filler, under pressure, and have carbonated cider
without riddling and disgorging. You are limited to 5-gallon batches at a
time unless you use a converted beer keg which is hard to clean. The
initial equipment cost can also be a bit high, but since I did it I've been
really happy. Note, as said before, I have not used the pressure filler myself.
For those who feel that a cider should have only 'natural' carbonation,
that can also be accomplished with this system. Simply fill the keg with
the cider and dosage, allow it to ferment and naturally carbonate. This
keg would have the 'out' tube cut short, or even bent to pull cider from
above, not below. Then pressure fill the bottles. One other option would
be to rough filter into another keg to remove the yeast, then bottle. The
options with corny kegs really open up the realm of possibilities.
TB
>A question regarding the best way to carbonate smaller batches of cider,
>e.g, 50 gallons or less.
>
>I've search the Internet and cider references, and haven't been able to
>locate any suggestions on equipments or methodology of carbonating cider
>beyond the adding sugar at bottling. I am loath to do that because of the
>lack of control. May I ask your opinions on a method to do this?
>
>Jan Davis
>Weasel Hill Farm
>Amissville, Virginia
================
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
tblists@pshift.com
(802)229-2004
1450 feet, zone 4A/B?
The views represented are mine and mine only........
------------------------------
Subject: Carbonating small batches
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 08:27:58 -0500
In CD#1160 Jan Davis asks:
>>I am loath to do that [bottle condition] because of the lack of control.
May I ask your opinions on a method to do this?
Jan,
I've had _no_ reproducibility / control problems with bottle fermentations.
But I do two things that count as 'fiddling' with cider. 1) I pitch a
champagne yeast and 2) I ferment to dryness - both pre-bottling and during
'tirage'. If you're bottle conditioning, you really need to know where you
stand with respect to residual sugar and your yeast's ability to scavenge
it.
I have also:
A) Naturally conditioned in a beverage keg.
B) Force carbonated in a beverage keg with head presure and agitation.
C) Force carbonated with an inline stone during kegging into standard 1/2
and 1/6 barrels.
D) Force carbonated a tank (built for pressure) with the inline carbonator
and a chilling coil - then bottled with a gravity filler.
E) Force carbonated with an in-tank stone and then kegged into barrels.
I don't think any of the force carbonated techniques I've tried are as
reproducable as the champagne method I use for the fancy cider. But I need
more practice to say for sure.
Variations on 'D' and 'E' have been suggested to me by about 4-5 different
wineries and cideries. It's not known for it's control - but for the low
equipment costs. And when proponents say 'bottle it cold' - they don't mean
40F. I get the feeling that the tank and bottler should frost up.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Second Last Call for PME Sample
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Thu, 2 Sep 2004 17:34:58 -0400
There has been a good response to the offer of free PME samples. However
some of the feedback suggests that the technical banter may have scared off
a few cidermakers . That would be a shame because PME keeving is actually
a lot simpler to do than the discussion may have implied.
Although I need to know how much cider you may be planning to make with PME
in your keeve (so I'll know how much PME to send) there will be information
included with the sample that will make it simple for you to divide it up
between smaller batches if that's what you want to do. That will include
recommendations of how much PME to use per gallon of cider, when to add it,
how long to let it sit before adding your calcium chloride, how much calcium
chloride to use, and some simple suggestions that might help you if you're
new to keeving. It will also include contact information for the two
suppliers I've been able to find so you'll know where to inquire in the
future if you happen to find that you like the results you get. I'm trying
to make the information packet self-contained and user-friendly (so
winemaking and homebrew supply businesses that also serve cidermakers will
have a good example to follow if they care to take up this business).
Whether you plan to make one 5-gal carboy or a large tank really shouldn't
matter. If you're not equipped with labware for measuring but know how much
cider you plan to make in each batch then let me know so I can send the PME
packaged appropriately.
The PME should keep well in your refrigerator until you're ready to use it
(you'll barely notice it next to the mustard). If you're not sure about
where to get the calcium chloride (or calcium carbonate if that's what you
prefer to use) I'll be glad to offer some suggestions, though I don't
recommend any supplier in particular. If anyone has any other questions
about using PME please let me know and I'll do the best I can to supply
understandable answers.
Gary
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Starch-Iodine tests
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Fri, 3 Sep 2004 20:30:35 -0600 (MDT)
In the last Digest, Ian A. Merwin <im13@cornell.edu> wrote about the iodine
test:
> ...there is a bulletin available from Cornell University ...
>...The publication is Information Bulletin No. 221, "Predicting harvest
> date windows for apples," ... [complete info in last digest]
Thanks! I still wonder why it's not mentioned, at least once in a while,
in amateur cidermaking books. (Ben--you listening? You were asking about
what changes people would like to see in the next edition of your book!)
> Interpreting the starch patterns is problematic, because each apple
> variety reaches "optimal" harvest maturity at a different starch
> index...
OK, we knew it wouldn't be an ideal test, so it helps to know about the
limitations. Actually, as I'd gone around dribbling tincture-of-iodine
on slices of windfalls every day or two, I'd started to get a sense that
some of them would still have significant starch even when they're ready
to mill.
> ...A more low-tech approach is to
> walk through your orchard daily as harvest time approaches, tasting
> each variety to check for development of its characteristic flavor
> and aromatic traits, slicing fruit to look at seed browning, watching
> for the onset of drop (many of the bittersweets will drop most of
> their fruit as it ripens)...
Yes, but!...I had mentioned each of these in my original note, along with
why I find them problematic. Let me be more explicit:
* taste: This I think is -far- more difficult with cider apples than
with "eaters". Just for example, when is a Nehou ready to pick, based
on taste? Would that be when the taste changes from "YEEEESSHH!!!"
to merely "Yech!" ?
* Seed browning seems to be a half-test: not-brown seeds mean not-ripe
fruit, but in some cases the seeds are apparently fully brown before
the apples are ripe.
* Onset of drop is quite variety-specific. Here (I suspect it's weather-
related among other factors) I see my Redstreaks and Foxwhelps
(Fauxwhelps?:-) dropping substantially well before they're ripe. On
the other side, the only Yarlington Mill or Major that I've seen drop
early are the ones that have been significantly attacked by pests or
that are just plain too much for the tree to carry...I guess those
would fit Ian Merwin's description.
>...The underlying skin groundcolor transition
> from greenish to cream white or yellow is a reliable indicator of
> ripening, that is independent of red or orange blush (which is an
> effect of direct sunlight on the fruit that often occurs well in
> advance of ripening).
Yet another indicator, but again not as easy for some as others. Bulmer's
Norman is thoroughly pale-green even when ripe; I don't see how I'll find
the ground-color transition. On the flip side, Kingston Black gets so
dark (here, anyway) by mid-August that it's hard to see a separate ground-
color.
I'm sure all this gets easier with practice, and I'm sure Ian Merwin has
had a lot more practice than I have. But when learning, it helps to have
various indicators as cross-checks, and the iodine test seems to have
value as such, even in an informal, nearly-qualitative sense.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1161
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