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Cider Digest #1090
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1090, 16 November 2003
Cider Digest #1090 16 November 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment (Osew@aol.com)
Wild yeast fermentations (Tim Bray)
Wild yeast fermentation (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #1089, 5 November 2003 (jack o feil)
Wild Yeast Fermentations ("gmarion.dri.edu")
wild yeast ("Raj B. Apte")
Palmer Cider Press ("5585")
Cider OGs // Malo-lactic fermentation // how to make sweet (Grant Family)
Cider Awards (John Ross)
Cider With the Soul of Wine (Peter G)
RE: Cider Digest #1081, 5 October 2003 ("Dave Halliday")
Re: Wild yeast fermentations (Scott Smith)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment
From: Osew@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:01:08 EST
My apple juice took off on its own after 24 to 48 hours at 70 F with an
airlock in place. I did not pitch cultured yeast.
I had added 1/4 teaspoon potassium meta to my carboy right before it was
filled from a local orchard's press. Original gravity was 1.054. I don't
know the pH or TA. I added no yeast nutrients/micronutrient.
I think I know the answer to my question but would like experienced
cidermakers to confirm. It smells of hydrogen sulphide/rotten eggs. Should
I assume the bad yeast and bacteria took over the ferment? Is it a lost
cause at 14 days into the ferment?
Also, is there a minimum original gravity I/we should aim for with 100% apple
juice?
Thanks,
Wendell
(first careless cider attempt, 10 yr brewer, 5 yr winemaker, mead soon)
Near the apple and vineyard country of northern and northwestern Virginia.
------------------------------
Subject: Wild yeast fermentations
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:46:19 -0800
Jen asked:
>I recently put up my first batch of cider without pitched yeasts. I
>added sulfites at 45 ppm, put an airlock on, and now, after a week,
>still see no sign of bubbling. My question is for those more
>experienced with this process than I- when do you start to worry?
When you see the first mold spots. The sulfite should prevent that, by
making oxygen unavailable, especially if you added it after putting the
cider into the carboy. If the sulfite concentration is just right, the
cider should clear after a couple of weeks. If that happens, rack the
cleared juice off the sludge before fermentation starts, and you can get a
nice slow ferment.
It took almost a month for fermentation to start in my cider last spring,
and even when it did the rate was very slow. It stopped when off-dry, at
about SG 1.01, but then restarted in the bottle. The resulting cider was
very nice.
If mold spots develop before fermentation starts, rack the cider (the mold
should stick to the inside of the carboy) and add more sulfite, or give up
and pitch yeast. But you have to catch it before the mold growth goes too
far, or it will ruin the cider. For me, this is the main reason to use
sulfite: it suppresses mold growth long enough for the yeast to become
active. This is also the reason to be careful with sulfite dosage: I don't
want to suppress the wild yeast, just the mold and bacteria.
Did you press your own juice, or get it from a mill? Juice from a cider
mill should have a large yeast population and start fairly quickly; but if
you pressed it yourself, your equipment won't have much of a culture built
up, and you only get the yeast that is on the apples - a pretty small
population. Takes it a while to get going. At least, that's been my
experience.
Cheers,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
Albion Works
Furniture and Accessories
For the Medievalist!
http://www.albionworks.net
http://www.albionworks.com
------------------------------
Subject: Wild yeast fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 20:04:48 +0000
Jen asked,
> I recently put up my first batch of cider without pitched yeasts. I
> added sulfites at 45 ppm, put an airlock on, and now, after a week,
> still see no sign of bubbling. My question is for those more
> experienced with this process than I- when do you start to worry?
Well it depends on the temperature and the pH of the juice and the
initial yeast load. But it might take as long as 3 weeks before
anything happens. So long as the juice remains under an airlock, the
effect of the sulphite *should* be that mould does not grow in this time
as the yeasts slowly multiply!
Good luck!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1089, 5 November 2003
From: jack o feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:07:46 -0800
Wenatchee, Washington
Jack Feil
Ira froze fresh cider in plastic milk jugs for later use, I do
the same with no leakage or breakage. Perhaps he did not leave enough
air space at the top or it's possible the jugs were exposed to ultra
violet rays from the sun and were somewhat brittle. I have some frozen
cider over two years old and it's still pretty good, however after about
six months the aromatics noticeably start to dissipate and after a year
are all but gone yet the cider is still sweet and drinkable and I did
ferment ten gallons and it turned out just fine. As reported before in
this forum, the aromatics are lost in the fermentation process so losing
aromatics in freezing for long period of time shouldn't make any
difference.
Jack
------------------------------
Subject: Wild Yeast Fermentations
From: "gmarion.dri.edu" <gmarion@dri.edu>
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 2003 17:32:57 -0800
There are at least two reasons why your wild yeast fermentation is slow
getting started. The first is that you added sulfite to your cider.
Wild yeasts are not adapted to sulfite as are cultured yeasts. Whenever
I do a wild yeast fermentation, I always leave out sulfite. Another
potential problem is that wild yeast can be slow getting started. You
could wait longer to see if your fermentation starts or you could pitch
a cultured yeast into your fermenter, which is what I would probably
do. Next time, don't sulfite your wild yeast fermentations.
- --
Dr. Giles M. Marion
Earth and Ecosystem Sciences
Desert Research Institute 775-673-7349 (phone)
2215 Raggio Parkway 775-673-7485 (fax)
Reno, NV 89512 gmarion@dri.edu
------------------------------
Subject: wild yeast
From: "Raj B. Apte" <raj_apte@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:43:04 -0800 (PST)
Jen asked about wild yeast fermentations.
Jen,
I'm not sure why you sulfited the juice. That inhibits
the 'early' yeasts and allows only Saccharomyces to
grow. Depending on the conditions (temperature is
really important) it can take a week. Make sure you
discourage mold growth by stirring daily, keeping the
insides of the fermenter clean, and maybe blowing some
CO2 on it. My fermentations usually start in 3-4 days,
but I don't sulfite. Other yeasts (Klebs, Kloeckera,
whatever) probably dominate my ferments for the first
but, until the alcohol and Saccharomyces take over.
I also make wine this way. If it doesn't start and I
get too nervous, I rack something out of secondary and
pitch that. Is your pH ok? I get fast starts at 4.0
but much slower as the pH goes down.
raj
------------------------------
Subject: Palmer Cider Press
From: "5585" <5585@email.msn.com>
Date: Thu, 6 Nov 2003 11:53:06 -0800
Can anyone on the list give me information on a cider press company
called "Palmer Cider Supply". I am trying to restore it, and need
further information.
Thanks
Tim Taylor
------------------------------
Subject: Cider OGs // Malo-lactic fermentation // how to make sweet
From: Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 2003 15:28:35 +1100
Thanks to everyone who answered my question on Sturmers.
Three questions: firstly, I made some cider 6 months ago (in the Aussie
Autumn/Fall), but didn't measure the OG of it. Is there a kind of "average"
original gravity (OG) of apple juice? I suppose it varies somewhat with
varieties, but how much? I used Sturmers, with ~5% dark red crab-apples
(dunno what they're called) in a few batches.
Secondly, what does malo-lactic fermentation do to the favour of cider?
Some of my batches have been a little too acidic (compounded because they
were also quite dry) and I'm wondering if this secondary fermentation will
reduce the acidity? How long would M/L fermentation take (for example, in
one batch which used wild yeasts and was completely untreated)?
Lastly, what are some of the ways to make sweet cider? I ignorantly thought
adding heaps of sugar would a good idea once- luckily I'd bottled in
unbreakable champagne bottles, but it painted the roof once the cork was
off! Anyone have sensible methods?
Thanks
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Awards
From: John Ross <johnross@halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2003 10:33:19 -0800
NORTHWEST CIDER SOCIETY
Contact: John Ross johnross@nwcider.org/206-545-7900
Ron Irvine ron@nwcider.org/206-463-5538
For Immediate Release
Seattle, November 8, 2003: The Northwest Cider Society has recognized six
American and Canadian cidermakers as award winners in its First North
American Cider Competition.
The competition was the first of its kind in North America, treating cider
as a distinct category, judged by cider specialists, rather than an
extension of a beer or wine competition. All of the winners are small
"artisan" cideries, who produce their ciders from fresh fruit.
The judges tasted a total of 30 ciders made by producers across the United
States and Canada. The award winners include:
Gold Medals:
Merridale Traditional Cider, made by Merridale Ciderworks of Cobble Hill
British Columbia, Canada
Oliver Beanblossom Hard Cider made by Oliver Winery of Bloomington, Indiana
Westcott Bay Vintage Cider, made by Westcott Bay Orchards of Friday Harbor,
Washington
Silver Medal:
White Oak Traditional English Style Cider, made by White Oak Cider of
Newberg, Oregon
Bronze Medal:
Rhyne French Style Sparkling Hard Cyder, made by Rhyne Cyder of Sonoma,
California
Certificates of Commendation:
Irvine's Vintage Blend, made by Irvine's Vintage Cider made by Irvine's
Vintage Cider of Vashon, Washington
Merridale Cidre Normandie, made by Merridale Ciderworks of Cobble Hill,
British Columbia, Canada
Merridale Cyser Cider, made by Merridale Ciderworks of Cobble Hill, British
Columbia, Canada
The competition's judges were Peter Mitchell of Worcester, England, a cider
production consultant and trainer; Dick Dunn of Hygiene, Colorado, an
amateur cidermaker and organizer of the international "Cider Digest" online
community; and Jon Rowley of Seattle, a food and beverage consultant.
------------------------------
Subject: Cider With the Soul of Wine
From: Peter G <peter.g@telus.net>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 20:49:33 -0800
Hi Folks ,
here's a link to today's article at the New York Times.
it covers Nat'l Cider Day in Colrain Mass. , and mentions Rhyne Cyder,
Farnum Hill Cider and others.
" Cider With the Soul of Wine "
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/12/dining/12CIDE.html
one may be required to "register" with NYTimes to read the text ...
but that's free.
while i'm at it ... here's another news bit at ENN.com
" Apple growers seek new, safer weapons in war on bugs "
http://www.enn.com/news/2003-11-11/s_10293.asp
no registry req'd .
regards
peter g
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1081, 5 October 2003
From: "Dave Halliday" <dh@synthstuff.com>
Date: Tue, 11 Nov 2003 21:22:03 -0800
My copy of Somerset Pomona just arrived from the U.K.
I had ordered it on Oct. 1st and they quoted a 4-6 week shipping.
Paperback, total bill for book plus shipping was $32.31
Excellent reference and nice brief history of cider making in that area.
Did not know that Avalon meant Isle of Apples...
Dave
> Subject: Somerset Pomona - was Chisel Jersey
> From: "Dave Halliday" <dh@synthstuff.com>
> Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2003 20:45:46 -0700
>
> I checked Amazon's U.K. web site and they have it on 4-6 week
> back-order and a 1.99 UK pound fee for being hard-to-find.
>
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1874336873/ref=sr_aps
> _books_1_1
> /202-3168179-9952629
>
>
> I have ordered from Amazon UK before with great success -
> there are books that come out there before they hit the
> colonies and the additional cost of shipping is not that
> great. Ordered myself a copy this afternoon and see what happens...
>
> Cheers!
> Dave
>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Wild yeast fermentations
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Nov 2003 09:52:54 -0500
> Subject: Wild yeast fermentations
> From: Jen <jclaster@localnet.com>
> Date: Mon, 3 Nov 2003 06:18:31 -0500
>
> I recently put up my first batch of cider without pitched yeasts. I
> added sulfites at 45 ppm, put an airlock on, and now, after a week,
> still see no sign of bubbling. My question is for those more
> experienced with this process than I- when do you start to worry?
> Happy cidering all!
I'm not much more experienced, but I let one go for almost a month last
year before it took off naturally. I had to remove a bit of mold at
one point from the top. This year I am still waiting for bubbles, and
I expect I may wait a long time, because we had some fresh juice from
the same pressing in the fridge, and it didn't have any fizz to it
several weeks later. I laid some CO2 on the top of the vat to minimize
oxygen contamination.
One thing I did unusually this year was to cut out all the bad bits of
the apples quite carefully. I wonder if I was perhaps a bit *too*
careful and cut out all the lovely fermenting bits, too. What happened
was my daughters were putting the apples in the grinder, and I had some
time to kill while they were doing it so I was doing a real nice job
cutting out the bad-looking bits.
I also am fermenting grapes for the first time this year, and the
grapes were not picked over too carefully before stem/crush so plenty
of "bad" fruit got in. They immediately took off in a strong natural
fermentation: from start to dryness took five days.
Scott
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1090
*************************
