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Cider Digest #1117
Subject: Cider Digest #1117, 26 February 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1117 26 February 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Commercial French Ciders (Terence Bradshaw)
Commercial Ciders ("John Howard")
Commercial Ciders ("James W Luedtke")
Re: Commercial Ciders (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Cell rupture during bottle pastuerization (Warren Place)
Re: basket-press and releasing juice (Michael Arighi)
sparkling cider trial by error ("Diane Gagnon")
Is Blackthorn an alcopop? (Andrew Lea)
Re: Commercial Ciders (Dick Dunn)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Commercial French Ciders
From: Terence Bradshaw <tblists@pshift.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:14:42 -0500
>I'd like the collective's opinions on the following commercial ciders:
>
>Bellot
>Etienne Dupont 2002 (Cidre Bouche Brut de Normandie)
>Blackthorn
I've tried the first two. Bellot I found cloyingly sweet, crystal clear,
overbubbly. I would assume it's made by alco-pop techniques...finish cider
to dryness, filter, back-sweeten with juice, add sorbate, artificially
carbonate, then bottle.
Etienne, however, seemed like the real deal. Mildly sweet, nice biscuity
aroma from live yeast fermenting in the bottle. Cloudy but not
sludgy. Cork damn near knocked my head off when opening (it's hard to
control that bottle ferment on the boat ride over/trip through distribution
system) but after initial foaming, it settled down to a nice carbonation
level.
TB
------------------------------
Subject: Commercial Ciders
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 13:00:25 -0500
Had a bottle of the Dupont recently. Very good IMHO. Ive read that French
ciders can have trouble traveling and recently was told of an undrinkable
bottle.
John Howard
Philadelphia PA
------------------------------
Subject: Commercial Ciders
From: "James W Luedtke" <james.luedtke@cgi.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:33:22 -0600
Robert Sandefer asked our opinion of Bellot, Etienne Dupont, and
Blackthorn.
It's been a year or more since I've purchased Blackthorn, but my
recollection is that it's nothing to write home about. If it was much
better than average, I'd have kept on buying it.
However, to me, Dupont's ciders may be the best example of Normandy
cider that can be found in the US. I had a 2000 bottle last Saturday,
and though past it's prime, it was still quite good (prime being not
much more than a year for French ciders). Even better, try his Calvados.
I tasted a 2-year old bottle that had smoothness I expect only from 10
years or more of aging.
Haven't had Bellot, will be interested to read others' opinions.
Jim Luedtke
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Commercial Ciders
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 15:00:07 -0500
Robert Sandefer writes:
> I'd like the collective's opinions on the following commercial ciders:
>
> Bellot
> Etienne Dupont 2002 (Cidre Bouche Brut de Normandie)
> Blackthorn
I haven't tried the Bellot, but in my opinion the other two are worth
drinking, particularly the Dupont, which I have found to be one of the
consistently best French ciders generally available in this country --
maybe THE best.
Dry Blackthorn used to be made by the Taunton Cider Co. in Somerset
until the 1990s, when they were purchased by Matthew Clark, the #2
cidermaker in the UK, after Bulmer. Their Addlestones and Taunton
Traditional brands are cask-conditioned and generally regarded as
better, but for what it is Dry Blackthorn is okay and eminently
drinkable -- at least it was a few years ago; I haven't been able to
find a bottle in a while in New England. I think it's easy to dump on
it if you're comparing it to artisanal ciders made by small-scale
producers like Naish or Gwatkin or even Weston's Old Rosie. But we
can't get those very easily over here in the US. Again, IMHO,
Blackthorn is way better than Woodpecker or other British "alco-pops".
I'd also put in a plug for Farnum Hill Ciders, which are an American
product and starting to become available in the DC area -- if you can't
find them, call (603) 448-1511 to inquire.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cell rupture during bottle pastuerization
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2004 12:28:17 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 McGonegal, Charles wrote:
> I seem to recall a note during the last cycle on this topic from a
> Digestarian that their attempt had gone horribly wrong. It sounded like the
> yeast cells lysed (popped) during the process and rendered his cider a
> cloudy muck.
Did anybody mentiuon that the much could have be proteins that
were precipitated by raising the temp?
> I can see how it would be possible. Back in my bright college days (oh,
> carefree days that fly...) I remember during genetics lab that we burst cell
> cultures on purpose as one technique to get at the DNA. A small amount of
> cell sludge yields an amazing amount of crud the consistency on snot.
Pasturization could pop some cells, but the temps I use for
pasteurizing (71C or 160F) is much lower than the temp I use to pop cells
in the lab (95C or 203). Yeast are tough little buggers. The snot you
see was DNA precipitated by high alcohol concentration (typically, 70% or
more). Unless you're making some really strong stuff (adding everclear) I
doubt you'd see that in cider.
> So my question is: How frequently has this happened to folks trying to
> bottle pastuerize cider with lees in the bottom. I've had Bill Rhyne's
> cider - the lees in his cider aren't especially firm - but they are still
> obvious yeast lees that settle out in a pretty short time. (Not cell debris)
I have seen wine get "cloudy" when heated and have been taught
that is a result of proteins.
> So does it happen to an occasional bottle? Depend on temp and conditions?
> Depend on yeast strain? Or is it vey rare that you end up with yeast or
> bacteria with weakened cell walls in your cider?
I've never had my cider get cloudy after heating, but I have only
pasteurized a few batches. I moved on to using artificial sweeteners as
it is technically much easier (and likely less dangerous) than bottle
pasteurization. Granted, I'm not at all opposed to adding chemicals to my
cider so may not consider this an option.
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Re: basket-press and releasing juice
From: Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Date: 25 Feb 2004 21:19:40 -0800
> From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 11:35:37 -0700 (MST)
>
> "Reynold Tomes" <rtomes@burnsmcd.com> wrote:
<long snip about rack & cloth vs. basket presses>
I'll pass along a suggestion I got from someone who was producing apple
juice commercially in Sonoma Co., CA, some years ago. FWIW, he said he
always threw in a layer of rice hulls between layers of pulp. Gave
channels for the juice to get out and significantly increased yield,
without affecting the juice. Also lets you compost the whole mass
afterwards: If my experience with trying to compost the pulp from about
40 bushels at once is any guide, it would be nice to have SOMETHING in
there to leaven it. Took forever.
Couple of drawbacks: a) rice hulls, which are readily available around
here (SF Bay Area), may be pretty scarce a lot of places, b) rice
milling, as I found out, doesn't take place at the same time as apple
harvest, so you'd have to get your rice hulls several months in advance
or the feed stores are likely to be out.
- --
Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
------------------------------
Subject: sparkling cider trial by error
From: "Diane Gagnon" <gagnond@endirect.qc.ca>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 12:27:04 -0500
Just a word on this year outcome : miscalculation had me to add four
times the sugar required to referment an 8% ABV 23 litres carboy in
order to get my usual dry sparkling cider. I mixed half of it to an
other free sugar carboy and bottled the rest as such,to see how it would
behave....so far after two months at 65 F the cider is normally
sparkling with a fair amount of residual sugar ,quite pleasing to taste.
It seems to be stable but will obviously keep an eye on it ,and chill if
sparkling increase to unacceptable level .Thanks for your
patience/time, Mr Dunn, sorry for writing miscalculation ! Denis Quebec
Canada
------------------------------
Subject: Is Blackthorn an alcopop?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 20:28:26 +0000
Robert Sandefer wrote:
>
> I've also come across a few sites claiming that Blackthorn is a British
> alcopop. Can anyone confirm this?
>
An 'alcopop' by UK definition is a drink where the alcohol is
pre-fermented, often distilled, and then added to the other ingredients
such as flavour, colour, sweetener, and preservative. Whatever your
opinion of Blackthorn, it is not made like that and it does qualify as a
cider under the UK definition which is admittedly rather wide (see
http://www.hmce.gov.uk/forms/notices/162.htm Sections 24 and 26).
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Commercial Ciders
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 17:43:37 -0700 (MST)
In CD 1116, Robert Sandefer <melamor@vzavenue.net> wrote:
> I'd like the collective's opinions on the following commercial ciders:
>
> Bellot
> Etienne Dupont 2002 (Cidre Bouche Brut de Normandie)
> Blackthorn
>
> A local store is selling these three and I have had the first two. Are
> these considered good, average, or horrible ciders? Are they regarded as
> decent French ciders?
There's been discussion here about the Dupont now and then. At its best
it is a good cider and a good example of Normandy style. Unfortunately,
it seems often to be found in poor condition on store shelves. The problem
is that it's bottled with residual sugar, bottle fermented, not pasteur-
ized. Therefore it can (and too often, does) ferment more than intended
in the bottle. If you get a bottle of the Dupont that pushes the cork
out as soon as you remove the wire, perhaps gushes out, and has a sharp
taste, you've gotten a bottle that has gone off. It's unfortunate, since
when it's in good condition it is a good cider. Still, bad bottles of
the Dupont are *not* rare, so that has to be reckoned in to a quality
assessment of the cider. And in any case, if I found a good bottle
in a shop, I'd snarf up a few more, store them carefully (probably just
in the fridge), and not keep them very long before serving.
The Eric Bordelet ciders are good, better than Dupont IMNSHO, but harder to
find. They're on the sweet side overall...their driest cider doesn't seem
to be imported into the US. The whole line (at least what reaches the US)
seems to include several ciders and a couple of perries.
> I've also come across a few sites claiming that Blackthorn is a British
> alcopop. Can anyone confirm this?
It is indeed British as you see from the label. As to the style, suffice
to note that the folks on the ukcider mailing list often refer to it as
"Blandthorn".
What do you mean by "alcopop"? I've called it that in a particularly
disgusted moment, but I think it would be more accurate to say "industrial
cider"--meaning a heavily-adulterated cider whose flavor is mainly made up
in a processing plant rather than just from blending apples. One might
reserve the term "alcopop" for the stuff on the next shelf over from the
industrial ciders...products with names like Hooch, Hard Lemonade, the
wine coolers, etc. These are truly alcopops inasmuch as they're made up
from a fermented base filtered to be as neutral as possible, with
carbonation, sugar, and (often artificial) flavoring added.
The ingredients in Blackthorn (in order of composition) are: fermented
apple juice, carbonated water, sugar, malic acid, sulfur dioxide.
That's pretty much in the watered-down/sugared-up profile of an industrial
cider.
Blackthorn used to be more conspicuously advertised as "Dry Blackthorn".
Now it's just "Blackthorn" in most of the advertising, and on the label
"Imported Dry" is in small type above. Dry? Well, label says 10 g sugar
in 330 ml, or 30 g/l (3%, effectively), which isn't very dry. By comparison,
Strongbow is 24 g/l sugar. These are for products imported into the US;
I don't know if UK versions are different but I think Robert is in the US.
Strongbow isn't the worst of the industrial ciders, and I think maybe
Blackthorn is slightly better than Strongbow. Blackthorn doesn't have
the apple-candy character that Strongbow does. And one can almost imagine
that a lorry or two of real cider apples snuck past the front gate
of the plant where Blackthorn is made. But you can get a feeling for
what's important to them by wandering the web sites for dry Blackthorn and
also finding your way in via Matthew Clark. The emphases are related team
sports and video gaming; the important aspects of the product are
marketing, packaging, labeling. Not much about cider.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1117
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