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Cider Digest #1091
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1091, 19 November 2003
Cider Digest #1091 19 November 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Sources for Foxwhelp trees on M111 stock ("Joshua Van Camp")
rotten egg aromatics ("Jay Hersh")
Acids: malic and tartaric (Mike Camp)
Malo-lactic ferment (Tom Smit)
Re: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment ("The Markers")
Re: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment (Warren Place)
Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment ("Bob Capshew")
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Subject: Sources for Foxwhelp trees on M111 stock
From: "Joshua Van Camp" <jvancamp@tc3net.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:16:26 -0500 (EST)
This is probably a long shot, but does anyone out there know of a place
besides Trees of Antiquity who might have Foxwhelp trees for sale on M111
rootstocks for either shipment now or in the spring? TOA is apparently
sold out for this year and this is the last variety that I need for my
cider plot. Any suggestions?
- -Josh
------------------------------
Subject: rotten egg aromatics
From: "Jay Hersh" <jsh@doctorbeer.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:04:16 -0500 (EST)
> I think I know the answer to my question but would like experienced
> cidermakers to confirm. It smells of hydrogen sulphide/rotten eggs.
> Should I assume the bad yeast and bacteria took over the ferment?
> Is it a lost cause at 14 days into the ferment?
make no such assumption. Sulfide and Sulfitic by products are produced in
many different types of fermentations. I've experienced them many times in
cider and lager ferments in particular. They represent a phase during the
fermentation in which sulfur compounds present in the wort or must are
being converted to aromatics which off gas from the ferment. In virtually
every case where I've experienced this the sulfur gas production will
eventually subside. In fact this is typically a good thing since it means
that sulfur compounds are being eliminated from the must by being off
gassed.
I'd caution patience. I've had many an excellent beer and cider come out
of a ferment that went through a sulfide or sulfitic off gassing phase.
Jay Hersh
BJCP Grand Master Judge and long lost Cider Digest founder
PS kudos again to Dick Dunn for the work he's done since taking this
digest over from me a long, long time ago.....
------------------------------
Subject: Acids: malic and tartaric
From: Mike Camp <graciespop@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 09:45:22 -0800 (PST)
This is my third year of fermenting cider/perry and I
have not paid any attention to the acid content of the
must until now. I think I'll get enough acidity in my
cider using winesaps and spitzenberg, but my perry
made purely from bartlet pears always seems to be a
bit flat (flavor wise). I'd like to be able to
balance it out a bit by adding acids/tannins and would
like to be able to do it a bit more scientifically
than just guessing.
I recently purchased an acid test kit designed to test
tartaric acid. I also purchased some malic acid to
add to low acid ciders. My question is, can I test
for malic acid content using a titration kit like the
one I ordered or do I need to use a ph test kit to
test malic acid content instead? Or is there
something else I need to do?
Thanks,
Mike Camp
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic ferment
From: Tom Smit <lunica@ozemail.com.au>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 06:43:21 +1030
does this happen naturally with cider? i know with grapes they add a ml
culture
made some cider last year, filtered juice so added champagne yeast
went from 1076 to 1006
nice dry cider, but had a slight sulphury smell about it, rather than an
apple smell
Tom Smit
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment
From: "The Markers" <markers@comcast.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 23:47:25 -0500
I'm far from a pro at this, but I'll offer my little experience. I had
this same thing happen to a batch last year. Went ahead and moved it to
secondary fermentation thinking it might improve. Went ahead and
bottled it hoping it might get better with age. Threw the last of it
out about a month ago. Now, there may have been a way to save it that I
don't know about, but I really wish I had just gotten rid of it at the
time while there was still fresh juice around to start another batch.
I take it from your sig line that you're around the northern Shenandoah
Valley. Where are you getting your juice from in that area? Any idea
what the mix of apples are?
Good luck,
J. R.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2003 11:08:17 -0800 (PST)
On Sun, 16 Nov 2003 Osew@aol.com wrote:
> My apple juice took off on its own after 24 to 48 hours at 70 F with an
> airlock in place. I did not pitch cultured yeast.
>
> I had added 1/4 teaspoon potassium meta to my carboy right before it was
> filled from a local orchard's press. Original gravity was 1.054. I don't
> know the pH or TA. I added no yeast nutrients/micronutrient.
>
> I think I know the answer to my question but would like experienced
> cidermakers to confirm. It smells of hydrogen sulphide/rotten eggs. Should
> I assume the bad yeast and bacteria took over the ferment? Is it a lost
> cause at 14 days into the ferment?
I've not had this problem with cider, but did have the problem
with an apple beer and with grape wine. If the cider is still fermenting
you could try adding some yeast nutrient. When yeast are unhappy, they
tend to make a big stink about it. Also, you can expect that the way the
cider smells now may not be how it smells when it is finished. My apple
beer (1 gallon cider added to a light ale) smelled of H2S so badly that it
was banished to the closet of a spare bedroom with the window open (in the
middle of winter). When the beer was finished and bottled, there was no
H2S odor. If there is H2S odor when the fermet is done, you can add CuSO4
to precipitate the H2S and rack off.
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment
From: "Bob Capshew" <rcapshew@epowerc.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Nov 2003 19:34:48 -0500
Subject: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment
From: Osew@aol.com
Date: Wed, 5 Nov 2003 13:01:08 EST
My apple juice took off on its own after 24 to 48 hours at 70 F with an=20
airlock in place. I did not pitch cultured yeast.
I had added 1/4 teaspoon potassium meta to my carboy right before it was
filled from a local orchard's press. Original gravity was 1.054. I don't
know the pH or TA. I added no yeast nutrients/micronutrient.
I think I know the answer to my question but would like experienced
cidermakers to confirm. It smells of hydrogen sulphide/rotten eggs. Should
I assume the bad yeast and bacteria took over the ferment? Is it a lost
cause at 14 days into the ferment?
Also, is there a minimum original gravity I/we should aim for with 100% apple
juice?
Thanks,
Wendell
Wendell,
The original gravity of 1.054 is fine. The yeast have a nutrient deficiency
which causes the sulphur smell to form. To remove the smell, add one or two
copper scrub pads that you can find at the grocery store. The sulphur will
bind to the copper after about a week then you will be free of the smell.
Good luck!
Bob Capshew
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End of Cider Digest #1091
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