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Cider Digest #1095
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1095, 2 December 2003
Cider Digest #1095 2 December 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1094, 29 November 2003 ("John C. Campbell III")
bladder press (Derek Bisset)
Carbonating cider (Andrew Lea)
Re: kegging cider (Alistair Bell)
Re: Carbonating Cider? ("Michael L. Hall")
Re: Bladder presses for cider ("McGonegal, Charles")
RE: Carbonating Cider ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1094, 29 November 2003
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 14:48:49 -0500
Terry ... that's a beautiful piece of equipment for sure but my immediate
reaction is that I see no specifications for the amount of pressure
'supported' in a bladder type press. (I looked at them briefly myself).
The typical well pump produces 4 - 7 gal. / min so you can figure the
amount of water pressure. If you look in a brewing supply store most of the
'wine presses' will have a disclaimer "not for use with apples" because a
great deal more pressure is needed to extract apple juice from the chipped
up apples (pomace) than grape juice from grapes. I'd certainly pose
the question to Dick Dunn and Andrew Lea as well since both are far more
knowledgeable on this than I am. We threw up our hands on the matter and
are presently redesigning from the Canadian brochure, a six foot tall rack
and cloth press. Dick Dunn will have the CAD drawings and .jpg capture
files from the CAD output for it when we are through (as well as a picture
of the actual press we construct).
jccampb.
John C. Campbell III (Annapolis, Md).
cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
> Bladder presses for cider (Terry and Julie Bradshaw)
> (snip)
> Subject: Bladder presses for cider
> From: Terry and Julie Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
> Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 10:31:03 -0500
> I was wondering if anyone here has had experience with using a bladder
> press for making cider. The units I refer to are Italian, generally 5-40
> gallons per squeeze (though they make them bigger). An example can be seen
> here:
> http://www.morebeer.com/detail.php3?pid=WE150
> I am wondering about yield efficiency, time per cycle, etc. I may want to
> skip a rack and cloth press and go this route, especially if it gives me
> more options, such as squeezing grapes. I already have a good pomace grinder.
> Thanks,
> Terry
> Terence Bradshaw
> 1189 Wheeler Road
> Calais, VT 05648
> madshaw@innevi.com
> (802)229-2004
>
> The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
>
------------------------------
Subject: bladder press
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 17:21:56 -0800
Terry asked about bladder vs rack and cloth presses . I have had both for
several years and I find I go back to the rack and cloth these days..
I have a water pressure operated Italian bladder press I am very pleased
with . It holds about 66kg of fruit and produces 38L of juice which I
calculate to be about 57% effciency . It works very quickly with about
fifteen minutes from loading to most of the juice pressed out . It is easy
to clean and easy to set up .I actually found myself surprised this year
that I went back to rack and cloth .
The main reason for going back was that I do fairly small amounts of fruit
and try to keep track of varietals . The bladder press requires a full load
and I found myself unwilling to bring it out for a small or partial load .
The rack and cloth is more flexible and will do any size of load . The
bladder press is awkward to unload , particularly if you are going for
second run .
Otherwise , they are comparable . The bladder press requires a cloth also
since the screen is designed for grapes and apple pulp leaks through . The
juice from both is clean and pulp free .Speed is about the same .
If I was starting again , the cost of a bladder press vs a simple rack and
frame would put me off .And ,if I were to build my own rack and frame I
could make it to a size suitable for my fruit production .
On the other hand if I had large runs of fruit and had help I would use the
bladder press for its simple and quick operation .
On another topic , could I draw Alistair's attention to
Merridale's (Cobble Hill) recent success in the Pacific Northwest Cider
Competition . Check out the apples Merridale are growing . I believe they
are a major factor in the production of good cider .
------------------------------
Subject: Carbonating cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 17:34:13 +0000
Peter Johnson asked:
> Has anyone tried carbonating cider using the same method that beer
> homebrewers use? My local store calls it "kegging" although it doesn't
> appear to use a keg in the traditional sense. You place approximately 5
> gallons in a pressure vessel and add CO2. This sits for about three days
> and then you inject the carbonated cider into bottles and cap immediately.
> I've used the more traditional method of adding sugar at bottling time but
> the problem with this method is I end up with sediment at the bottom of my
> bottles.
Yes I've done this on a small 'kitchen scale'. (You can also do a
genuine secondary yeast fermentation in the pressure vessel). The
problem is that you lose quite a bit of CO2 as you bottle and it tends
to fob out of the bottles. Best results are achieved if you can cool
the whole pressure vessel to just above freezing to keep as much of the
CO2 in solution as possible. However you do it, it's quite messy unless
you can do counterpressure filling as is of course done commercially
(not easy at home!). Perhaps someone has managed to streamline it for
home use?
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: kegging cider
From: Alistair Bell <albell@shaw.ca>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 13:12:02 -0800
Peter Johnson asked about kegging cider...
I have a good success for the last 3 years kegging a good portion of my
cider. I use pop kegs (Cornelius/Firestone) kegs which are approx. 17 imp
gallons capacity. I found one of them by the side of the road (honestly! was
missing lid though) and the other I got from the local Pepsi bottling plant.
The CO2 tank was rented from Pepsi also, paid a deposit and get a refill for
around Ca$20.
The guys at Pepsi were very helpful, bought a refurbished keg and
replacement parts (lid, poppet valves etc).
I had a surplus 2 stage CO2 reg already, this is an expensive part.
I have tried both kegging with some priming (glucose) and just CO2
overpressure alone. Using CO2 alone seems to work just as well.
I have read, a lot of info on temp, CO2 pressure, and the resultant degree
of carbonation and I do try and follow instructions, but often I do a quick
carbonation to get some drinkable stuff. In those cases I transfer some
clear cider from carboy to keg (and BTW, having a CO2 supply is great for
purging air from a "not quite as full anymore" carboy), purging the
remaining air with CO2, and then over-pressuring to about 60psi. That
pressure soon drops (a few hours) as the CO2 is dissolved. Shaking the keg
helps. Then I try and maintain around 25-30 psi to create a sparkling cider.
I find with my variety of cider, a good sparkle tastes better than a more
moderate one.
Anyway, I dispense with a home made tap (lab tubing then a stainless ball
valve and a bit of bent stainless tubing). One can find proper taps at home
brew shops. Dispensing pressures can be lower than carbonation pressures,
say around 15 psi or even lower. The cider foams a bit but settles down
quickly, its not like Guinness!
I think its a great way to dispense cider.
Then again one can make a "counter pressure filling" apparatus to dispense
the carbonated cider into bottles. There is lots of info on the web
describing this for beer. I have yet to try it. I find, for whatever reason,
my primed champagne bottled cider clears up well and the yeast sediments do
not stir up upon opening.
Alistair
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Carbonating Cider?
From: "Michael L. Hall" <Mike.Hall@POBox.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 15:42:24 -0700
Peter Johnson writes:
> Has anyone tried carbonating cider using the same method that beer
> homebrewers use? My local store calls it "kegging" although it doesn't
> appear to use a keg in the traditional sense. You place approximately 5
> gallons in a pressure vessel and add CO2. This sits for about three days
> and then you inject the carbonated cider into bottles and cap immediately.
> I've used the more traditional method of adding sugar at bottling time but
> the problem with this method is I end up with sediment at the bottom of my
> bottles. I've read about methods for removing the sediment but I was hoping
> to find a process that carbonates the cider without producing sediment.
I usually carbonate my cider by kegging it. I find that my cider
ferments out too dry for me, so I put 4 gallons of fermented cider
with one gallon of fresh unfermented cider into a keg and carbonate
it. This adds back some sweetness and apple character to the dry
cider. If you keg it, you don't worry about a fermentation starting
again -- just blow off the pressure.
This may be unorthodox but it works well for me...
Cheers,
- -Mike
============================================================================
Michael L. Hall, Ph.D. <mailto:MichaelHall@AOB.org>
President, Los Alamos Atom Mashers <http://hbd.org/atommash>
President, BJCP Board of Directors (Mtn/NW Rep) <http://www.BJCP.org/>
Member, AHA Board of Advisors <http://www.BeerTown.org/>
============================================================================
George Washington had his own brewhouse, and his recipe for beer,
in his own handwriting, is in the archives of the New York Public
Library. -- Hog's Headlines, The Beer Facts
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bladder presses for cider
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:45:03 -0600
In CD#1094, Terry asked about using bladder presses for cider.
I'm interested if anyone has any experience trying this. The models I have
seen typically have a maximum pressure of about 40 psig. I just did some
figuring, and find that the rack and cloth presses I've used (and built in
one case) run about 80-100 psig. So I would be concerned about low yield
from a bladder press. (I'm used to 3.5 to 4 gal/bushel for apples)
Those numbers (if at all accurate) tend to support what I've heard about
using rack and cloth presses with things like cherries and grapes - it's way
too easy to over press berries and stone fruit. You end up getting a _lot_
of fine sediment that you then need another way to remove.
Charles McGonegal
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Carbonating Cider
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 21:51:01 -0800
One thing to remember when carbonating your cider is to keep it cold, this
keeps the CO2 from boiling off as a gas. It also make bottling easier since
you do not have to deal with a lot of foamy cider. Low 30's seems to work.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1095
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