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Cider Digest #1086
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Subject: Cider Digest #1086, 26 October 2003
Cider Digest #1086 26 October 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1085, 20 October 2003 (Steury & Noel)
Cracking Cox's (Tim Bray)
Re: yeast & temp (Warren Place)
Re: yeast & temp (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
Yeast for an ice cider? ("Skot Allan-Colacicco")
The effect of heat on cider (Lawrence L Senters)
Yeast and temperature (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1085, 20 October 2003
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@potlatch.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 21:51:17 -0700
re: fermentation temps
I'm also perplexed by the recommended fermentation temperatures. (I'm
auditing a fermentation class next spring, so hope to be enlightened). I
fermented everything last winter with Wyeast cider yeast and a Cotes de
Blanc (I think a dry yeast, but maybe Wyeast)in a shed outside.
Admittedly, it was a mild winter for here. When it got below about 15 F.,
I fired up a kerosene heater for the night, just to keep the waterlocks
from freezing. But overall, I'd say the temp ranged from 20 F. to 45 F. I
wouldn't venture a guess at an average. The fermentation slowed down and
sped up, depending on the temperature, but the Wyeast chugged away, albeit
slowly, at freezing. I started fermentation in November and bottled most
at 1.005, and a bit below, specific gravity in late April. It (many
blends) is the best cider I've ever made.
Tim Steury
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
------------------------------
Subject: Cracking Cox's
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 22:56:26 -0700
Does anyone else have a problem with Cox's Orange Pippin fruit
cracking? Most of what little fruit there was this year, was badly cracked
and unusable for cider. Same last year, which was the first year they
fruited. The apples crack early in summer, then continue to grow and ripen
even with the surface cracked. The cracking usually occurs on the sunny
side, but not always. These are 4-year trees, heavily mulched with
composted manure this year.
Anyone know what causes this, and if there is a simple
solution? Otherwise, I think I will rework my Cox's over to something else
that does better here. Porter's or Yarlington Mill, maybe.
I'm on the northern California coast, USDA Zone 9/10, very mild climate;
maximum summer temperatures usually about 80 F for a few days, average
daytime highs usually 65 - 70 F. Winter lows around 28 - 30 F for a few
nights. Soil is a well-drained sandy loam, but poor in nitrogen (hence
the manure). My biggest problems are humidity (very damp climate) and not
enough winter chill for some varieties. Other than that, this is a great
climate to live in!
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: yeast & temp
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 10:59:32 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 John Howard wrote:
> and anecdotal advice of cidermakers to ferment cider at low temperatures (45
> to 55F) and the fact that yeast manufacturers recommend much higher
> temperatures for most of their products. Only a few yeasts are advertised
> for use in the 50s. I hear good things about cider yeasts' apple flavor
> retention, but W****t suggests 60-75F for their cider yeast and W**** L**s
> suggest 68-75F for theirs. I suppose I'll just ignore the manufacturers'
> advice and keep a close eye out for a stopped fermentation.
> John Howard
I use Wyeast 3766 and keep it in the lower end of the temp range
to slow oxidative browning in the cider and retain apple character. An
added benefit is a less vigorous ferment might allow you to maximize
fermenter space and produce more cider.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: yeast & temp
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt@umich.edu>
Date: Thu, 23 Oct 2003 16:21:19 -0400
I might hazard a guess that the fermentation temperatures used by cider
makers has more to do with what the temp is like wherever they have their
fermenters than what will get the maximum use out of the yeast. Can
anybody corroborate/refute this?
- -Travis
A2, MI
>As a newbie cidermaker and compulsive researcher, I am perplexed by the
>near universal
>published and anecdotal advice of cidermakers to ferment cider at low
>temperatures (45
>to 55F) and the fact that yeast manufacturers recommend much higher
>temperatures for most of their products. Only a few yeasts are advertised
>for use in the 50s. I hear good things about cider yeasts' apple flavor
>retention, but W****t suggests 60-75F for their cider yeast and W**** L**s
>suggest 68-75F for theirs. I suppose I'll just ignore the manufacturers'
>advice and keep a close eye out for a stopped fermentation.
>John Howard
------------------------------
Subject: Yeast for an ice cider?
From: "Skot Allan-Colacicco" <sjg81@netzero.net>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 09:34:07 -0800
Being that there seem to be an amazing wealth of informed cider makers
on this site, I feel this obscure question might find itself at home
here.
I plan on making about 60 gallons of cider this season, freezing either
the juice, or the apples before pressing then fermenting it as well as
aging it in french oak barrels (used one year for chardonnay).
My question is multitude:
What would be a good yeast for this endeavor?
With a fairly high OG (1.09-1.11) and moderatly strong tannins (blend of
Gravenstein and crabs) what would produce a decent flavor profile and
good attenuation (approx 80%?)
What is the best way to extract the sugars from the frozen juice?
I have heard simply freezing buckets or blocks of cider then setting
them in a large fermenter and allowing the sugars to drip out from
gravityworks well. Are there better ways? It seems this way allows for
wild yeast potential
And of course, are there some serious flaws in this plan that anyone
else can see?
I wholeheartedly welcome some educated discussion on this topic. My
experience is limited and my hopes, as always, are set so high.
Skot Allan-Colacicco
------------------------------
Subject: The effect of heat on cider
From: lsenters@toledotel.com (Lawrence L Senters)
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 11:20:10 -0800 (PST)
Does anyone have experience with this? I'm talking about carrying a bottle
in a car on a warm day, for example, for several hours. I've had recipients
of a gift bottle complain that it "didn't taste good"; "rank", "off", are
some of the adjectives used, after they got it home. Recently I was the
recipient of such a bottle and had the same experience when I opened it at
home several hours later. This has happened 3 times out of 3 tries now.
Unfortunately there's a Catch 22 here since once the recipient gets home a
comparison bottle isn't available so you don't really know whether the
recipient is comparing my cider with alco-pop or if, in fact, a chemical
change took place. I would have expected excessive heat (maybe 120 degrees
plus) for several hours to have a deleterious effect, but wouldn't have
thought that it would have to be transported in a cooler to keep from
ruining it.
On another subject, as a newcomer to the Digest I skimmed recent issues and
noiced discussion of the appropriate material for lining the tub of a press.
When I first started pressing I noticed all the books said the tub "had" to
be lined so I used cheesecloth. After pulling the cheesecloth out from the
cracks between the staves where it had been forced by the pomace and
painstakingly rinsing it, after about 2 presses I said there's got to be a
better way. Leaving the tub unlined the next time I just attached 3 or 4
layers of cheesecloth to the top of the catch bucket to filter the juice. A
negligible amount of pomace is lost between the unlined staves. If more
than negligible I would say a new tub with more tightly spaced staves is in
order. Once the press is finished the pomace is dumped and the tub blasted
with the hose for a minute. The cheesecloth does a commendable job of
filtering, only has to be rinsed every 1/2 dozen presses or so, is cheap and
the job goes about 4x as fast as it did when we were lining the tub.
Larry Senters
Chehalis, WA
------------------------------
Subject: Yeast and temperature
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 20:35:55 +0000
John Howard wrote:
> As a newbie cidermaker
> and compulsive researcher, I am perplexed by the near universal published
> and anecdotal advice of cidermakers to ferment cider at low temperatures (45
> to 55F) and the fact that yeast manufacturers recommend much higher
> temperatures for most of their products. Only a few yeasts are advertised
> for use in the 50s.
Be clear that the reason for that is that most traditional
recommendations are based on wild yeast fermentations which do better at
really low temps (4C or 40F) because it keeps them good and slow (3
months is the target!), and those conditions are what the Northern
European winter has typically provided.. These are successional
fermentations which start with apiculate yeasts e.g. Kloeckera apiculata
and finish with Saccharomyces cerevisiae. There are no cultured yeasts
which are specifically selected for such low temperatures nor anything
that reproduces the natural succession. There is some work showing that
K. apiculata is favoured over Saccharomyes cerevisiae at temperatures
around 4C.
All the cultured yeasts are Saccharomyces that come from the grape wine
industry, and none have been specifically selected for cider which is
minuscule in commercial terms and certainly not worth developing a
special yeast for!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
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End of Cider Digest #1086
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