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Cider Digest #1105
Subject: Cider Digest #1105, 5 January 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1105 5 January 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: BJCP and cider judging (Benjamin Watson)
Dry Farming Links? ("Mark Ellis")
RE: Good commercial ciders / perries in Australia? ("Mark Ellis")
Re: cider styles and NY Times tasting (Scott Smith)
Re: Cider Digest #1103, 29 December 2003 (Jack O Feil)
RE: [ukcider] Dry Farming Links? ("stephen hayes")
Cider _vs_ Mead digest statistics (Cider Digest)
Re: BJCP and cider judging (John DeCarlo)
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Subject: Re: BJCP and cider judging
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Jan 2004 11:43:55 -0500
Dick Dunn has done a great job synthesizing and commenting on a lot of
our recent postings on BJCP and cider competitions, but I just wanted
to add a few additional thoughts.
1. I hope that my earlier comments didn't annoy the BJCP people too
much; I respect what they are trying to do. And I am aware that the
rationale for including cider and mead categories is because home
brewers make both (I make cider, too, which is still very much a
country wine for my own consumption.) These are the selfsame people who
in the past decade have supported Cider Day so strongly -- folks like
Paul Correnty and Charlie Olchowski, who have been leading workshops on
home cidermaking and even holding "what went wrong" tastings. I have
also led workshops in the past at various conferences, and I agree it's
incredibly important to get people interested in making cider as home
producers -- not merely consumers. That, in my mind, is what separates
cider enthusiasts from most oenophiles (I love wine, but I don't try to
make my own). And it adds to people's knowledge and appreciation of
well-made commercial ciders.
2. Also, I didn't mean to throw a wet blanket on competitions in
general, and the NWCS event in particular. Despite what Dick says, I am
a pretty competitive guy! But I think it is fair to say that we cider
aficionados are still figuring things out, so that we can conduct our
own focused tastings that really "mean" something.
To that end, I will be meeting with Terry Maloney from West County
Winery in the coming weeks -- to start planning for Cider Day 2004. And
I will broach the idea with him of hosting an official cider judging as
part of the event this year -- so that we would have two venues -- NWCS
and Cider Day -- from which we could draw information. My thought would
be to do a "pretasting" around August this year and separate the
ciders into different classes, if that seems appropriate. But I will
have to think about how we'd do this. We probably would not include
commercial "draft" ciders (what's the point, really?), but of the
remaining ciders, I wonder how we would distinguish among them.
- -- As a shorthand thing, for instance, I generally call West County
ciders "French-influenced", because they are softer and rounder with a
bit more residual sugar. Rhyne Cyder and a few others like Furnace
Creek Winery would fall into this category (bottle-fermented, or not,
with some residual sweetness).
- -- Farnum Hill ciders tend to be "English-inspired," though they have
way more acidity. White Oak Cider and many others fall into this class.
- -- Murdo Laird's farmhouse cider, which undergoes full ML fermentation
and is still, nutty, and winelike, is almost unique. What category does
this fall into, if any?
- -- Perhaps we should distinguish between natural yeast ciders (Sow's
Ear, Flag Hill Farm, etc.) and other ciders?
At any rate, you can see why my head starts smoking when someone at
BJCP or another panel blithely asks for "subcategories" and tasting
criteria. I won't say there aren't any, but how you divide these
American ciders into discrete groups is very much a personal, and
somewhat arbitrary, matter.
3. My question this summer to the group as to what defines "real cider"
(which we've since been calling "craft cider" or "traditional cider",
as a result of our collective wisdom) is very much still in play -- I
will sort out all the comments soon, and post to the digest before I
make my proposal to Slow Food USA for adding American Craft Cider as a
U.S. Ark of Taste Initiative. Slow Food has worked with me over the
past two years and has been incredibly supportive of the craft cider
industry -- and they know how to organize well-run public tastings and
how to promote events and producers. They will continue to be important
partners for us in the future, because they reach chefs, media, and
other important opinion leaders.
------------------------------
Subject: Dry Farming Links?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 08:50:05 +1100
G'day All,
I am seeking a great deal of info on non-irrigated or minimal irrigated
orcharding, and I was hoping that some of you fine people might have links
or access to info.
Traditional adequate quantities of irrigation water in most of Australia is
becoming exceedingly rare.
Many Thanks for any help.
Regards
MarkE in OZ
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Good commercial ciders / perries in Australia?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 09:57:26 +1100
G'day Ross,
Well matey, there are a few established Cideries around this big brown
biscuit of ours.
First off a newer operation "Henry's of Harcourt" makes some very tidy
offering. Main line is based on Pink Ladys I think, but he has got heaps of
cider apple trees growing and are starting to bear well so look out, as Drew
knows his craft well. Email: dhenry@origin.net.au Ph: 5474 2177
In the same area: HARCOURT CIDER Calder Hwy Harcourt 3453 > (03) 5474 2262
Email brinstill@netcon.net.au
Next would be Thorogood's from South Aussie. They use a very traditional
technique complete with oak barrels etc http://www.thorogoods.com.au
And another... using Swiss style cidermaking
http://www.oldgoldfields.com.au
The one you mentioned http://www.sydneycider.com.au/
Hope this helps
Cheers
Mark E in OZ
<SNIP>
Subject: Good commercial ciders / perries in Australia?
From: Ross McKay <rosko@zeta.org.au>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:32:01 +1100
G'day,
All this talk of tastings has me feeling quite alone and isolated in my
little corner of the world. I'd love to taste, evaluate and compare a
selection of fine ciders and perries, but alas - all I can generally lay
my hands on are my own, or Bulmer's "finest". If I'm lucky, I can find a
Mercury from Tasmania, and I believe I found something called Scrumpy
Jack some time ago, but that's about it.
</SNIP>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider styles and NY Times tasting
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:45:49 -0500
> ...
> Short answer: because it is extremely difficult to replicate Norman-style
> ciders in the US. The reasons _why_ this is so are complex. Normans have
> certain natural advantages: unique flora, for one thing, and an entirely
> different agricultural/economic setting for another. ...
I am also on a quest to make a Norman-style cider, since it is the kind
I like the best (the NYT and I completely agree on the top three). I
have so far figured out that it is impossible without European cider
apples, given how far what I am getting is from a Norman cider. Some
of the Norman principles I have been using are the cold ferment,
minimal nutrition (rack frequently to remove food for the yeast),
natural yeast only, and good tannin content. One thing I have thought
of trying is to hang a piece of Norman cheese in the cider and see if
that gets a yeast off of the cheese going. The Dupont cider in
particular seems to have a cheese-like taste to it...
This year my natural ferment went very quickly, I should have racked
earlier and more often. I haven't yet been successful with a keeve,
and so there is too much nutrient for the yeast. This year I used the
GrapTan "S" tannin additive since I have no European cider apples. I
can say that it works *much* better than the standard kind of tannin
powder that I used previously. There is no negative flavor in the
profile at this point. I used 2tsp/5gal so far, and plan on adding a
bit more. Last year I used a standard tannin powder and there is a
mustiness in the flavor that has not left yet.
The real test for me will be in a couple years when my Frequin Rouge,
Binet Rouge, Noel Des champs, St. Martin, etc trees come into bearing.
I don't mind if what I end up with is not exactly like a Norman cider,
but I want something with the richness and complexity I have only found
in Norman ciders. (note I've never had any good English cider).
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1103, 29 December 2003
From: Jack O Feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Sat, 3 Jan 2004 14:00:58 -0800
I' like to break into the current topic ,cider judging (pardon me) while
this thought is still on my mind, how to make a slightly sweet sparkling
cider. I fresh cider primed (10%) and got a nice little sparkle but it
was too dry for my palate. I tried to come up with a method to accomplish
sweetening dry sparkling cider. My thought turned to using an
unfermentable sweetener, I'll probably try that unless someone out there
can tell me why it won't work.
The subject was covered somewhat in Bill Rhynes post in digest #
1062, he has had customer acceptance for his product. He used an in
bottle pasteurization technique, but at what stage of the secondary
fermentation do you pasteurize and aren't you apt to wind up with broken
bottles during the heat pasteurization process? Also, in an article on
the web the writer says, if you want a sweetened sparkling cider, go to
the liquor store. On a small scale that may be true, but I'm not ready to
accept that just yet. I'm looking forward to January,1 2005 and toasting
in the New Year with my own sweet sparkling cider.
Jack Feil
------------------------------
Subject: RE: [ukcider] Dry Farming Links?
From: "stephen hayes" <stephen.hayes1@virgin.net>
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 2004 19:35:37 -0000
I don't water my trees, which is OK most years and suits our market as
we want denser apples with more dry mass and flavour, but means in
extreme conditions of heat some varieties especially younger trees may
drop their fruit. Fruit may also need thinning to get a decent size (I'm
thinking eating apples here admittedly)
Only suggestion I can make is dig in plenty of long lasting compost eg
composted forest bark, old woolen clothes or carpets to retain moisture,
use a mulch and control weeds very throughly-this point cannot be
overemphasised as weeds and grass compete with the tree for water. Black
polythene?
Some rootstocks can manage better with less water also, I recommend
MM106 but there may be better ones.
Cheers
Stephen
Southern England
- -----Original Message-----
From: Mark Ellis [mailto:mark@artisansrus.com]
Sent: 02 January 2004 21:50
Subject: [ukcider] Dry Farming Links?
G'day All,
I am seeking a great deal of info on non-irrigated or minimal irrigated
orcharding, and I was hoping that some of you fine people might have
links or access to info.
Traditional adequate quantities of irrigation water in most of Australia
is becoming exceedingly rare.
Many Thanks for any help.
Regards
MarkE in OZ
------------------------------
Subject: Cider _vs_ Mead digest statistics
From: cider-request@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Mon, 5 Jan 2004 09:34:46 -0700 (MST)
In digest 1103, Charles McGonegal <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com> wrote:
>...Consider that the CD cirulation
> is on the order of a few hundreds - and few even of us have enough
> experience in cider to call 'expertise' (And I not among them, except in my
> niche). Even the Mead Digest is nearly an order of magnitude larger - and
> there isn't even a Woodchuck-analog in the mead world!
Just for the sake of nitpicking accuracy, the Mead-Lover's Digest is just
under twice the size of the Cider Digest subscription list. (OK, a
*binary* order of magnitude?) Currently the MLD is about 1200; the CD is
about 635-640.
Perhaps of some interest (I'm doing end-of-year work anyway), the submitted
material on the MLD in 2003 was only 13-14% more than on the CD, so the CD
is substantially more active (or at least more loquacious!) _per_capita_
than the MLD.
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: BJCP and cider judging
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo@mitre.org>
Date: Mon, 05 Jan 2004 13:04:35 -0500
> From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
...
> The problem is *not* merely that there aren't separate style sub-categories
> for those regional styles. It's that the criteria--the descriptions of
> characteristics (we're talking 26A, Standard Cider and Perry here)--would
> eliminate those ciders. You couldn't enter a perfect Norman or English West
> Country cider and expect to do well; the criteria rule against it.
This is a serious issue and from the various posts I have seen so far,
it may well get *better* soon. This type of thing also happens in the
beer world, as new styles develop or as better understanding happens.
I like the idea of a certificate of merit. I think the BJCP should
consider this idea. It certainly applies to various beer categories
now, such as fruit beers, which rarely have anything in common except
using fruit.
...
> And there's a dilemma in the idea of going out and buying some excellent
> examples of commercial ciders: On the one hand it is obvious and necessary
> in order to put ciders in front of people so they can learn. There is no
> other way to teach people about cider tastes; "book learning" is impossible,
> so Al Boyce is trying to do what needs to be done. But on the other hand
> you can't just go out and buy excellent commercial ciders. In a few small
> areas of the US you can find maybe a few good ciders; in many areas, none
> at all. It's a beer-world expectation that you can get those commercial
> examples. Where does this dilemma leave us? I think we're back at Ben
> Watson's contention that it's premature for serious competition.
Here I have to express my ignorance. In the beer world, if you really
want to know what an Alt is, you have to go to Dusseldorf and taste a
bunch. Why not say that to know what an Asturias-style cider is like,
you have to go to Spain? Even citing specific commercial examples often
needs to be qualified by saying "don't go by the versions imported into
this country, as they always lose important characteristics, not being
shipped cold."
> If you set your mind to it, and give yourself a couple weeks, and if you're
> in one of the "reciprocal" states, you can come up with enough ciders to
> set in front of people to give them a perspective. But what you end up
> with is Ben Watson's problem that you're showing a spectrum of cider with
> no clear focus...like a stout, a best bitter, an American pale ale, a
> pilsner, and a wit.
I see two points here.
1. Getting decent examples to taste.
2. Understanding the different categories.
In that respect, it may well be worthwhile to try and come up with a
more complex definition of cider styles. In any given competition, a
judge may have to compare wildly different styles, but at least he/she
should know they were entered as wildly different styles. Beer judges
have that when all Belgian styles are collapsed into one judging flight.
...
> But wait. The class you're describing is training, trying to bring people
> up to speed. It's not what Gary's fussing about. The actual exam for BJCP
> is a combo of written (essay questions) and testing on actual tasting...but
> it covers *only* beer. As far as I can tell, a new judge could get a
> perfect score without answering a single question on cider or tasting a
> single cider. So back to Gary's question: where's the "certification"?
This is an age old problem. It comes up within BJCP circles with
regularity.
What would be nice is to have a method for certifying judges by style as
well as having the general BJCP certification. Then we could know which
judges really have the knowledge and experience to really judge a
particular style (whether wit, lambic, West Coast Stout, Normandy cider,
Asturias cider, etc.). In that case, "cider" certification would have
to have sub-certifications or annotations about what types of cider that
person is certified for.
As you have no doubt realized for yourself by now, this would be a *lot*
of work and difficult to administer.
A system of "self-certification" or annotation might not be so hard and
perhaps the BJCP judge database could allow for entering this based on
judge input. That would also lead to arguments, of course.
> ...
> There's going to have to be some accommodation between BJCP and
> cidermakers. I hope that's where the present discussion will take us.
> But, as I said, there will be some ruffled feathers along the way.
I am personally encouraged by this discussion. I have seen many others
with more than ruffled feathers involved.
Remember that the BJCP guidelines serve multiple purposes. One is to
use at judging time. Another important purpose is for the person making
the product at home. Seeing the various categories that are
acknowledged can actually influence the behavior of the person putting
together ingredients and fermenting them. It is in this area that I see
potentially even more benefits for good cider.
I know that Bill Slack and others involved with the BJCP style
guidelines have posted here on this topic.
But I just read on the Judge digest that the BJCP is currently in
another round of updates. So the time is ripe. Let me quote Dave
Houseman's post:
> David Craft asks about Irish Red in the AHA next year. What I can tell you
> is that the BJCP has a committee currently working on a major revision of
> the style guidelines, including new styles; one of them is Irish Red Ale.
> The AHA will adopt these just as they did the previous revision of the BJCP
> style guidelines. However the timing will likely be that these won't make
> it into the mainstream until the 2nd half of 2004 and in 2005. The
> committee's goal is to release a version of the style guideline for general
> review and comment as soon as possible, perhaps by the end of the first
> quarter. So they won't make the AHA's NHC but certainly any competition
> that wished to can adopt the new style guidelines for their competition
> whenever they are released.
>
> David Houseman
> BJCP Competition Director
Thanks.
John DeCarlo, My Views Are My Own
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1105
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