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Cider Digest #1092
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1092, 20 November 2003
Cider Digest #1092 20 November 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Acids: malic and tartaric (Dick Dunn)
Re: Sources for Foxwhelp trees on M111 stock ("Dunlop, Steve")
Re: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment (Warren Place)
Malo-lactic cultures (Scott Slezak)
Proper vessels for drinking cider ("Joe Hecksel")
Foxwhelp (Tim Bray)
Malo-lactic ferment (Tim Bray)
Nervous Questions of a Cider Virgin (UUNavyChaplain@aol.com)
rotten egg aromatics ("Gilbert Milone")
High Acidity Cider ("Michael Janik")
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Subject: Re: Acids: malic and tartaric
From: Dick Dunn <rcd@talisman.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 09:22:19 -0700
Mike Camp <graciespop@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I recently purchased an acid test kit designed to test
> tartaric acid. I also purchased some malic acid to
> add to low acid ciders. My question is, can I test
> for malic acid content using a titration kit like the
> one I ordered or do I need to use a ph test kit to
> test malic acid content instead? Or is there
> something else I need to do?
Yes, no. No.
Yes, you can "test for malic acid" with the kit. Acid expressed "as malic"
is just a different reference point from acid expressed "as tartaric".
Take the value the test kit gives you and multiply by 0.9 (more accurately
0.893, but 0.9 is easier to remember and way close enough). That will give
you acid (titratable acidity or TA) expressed as % malic.
No, you don't need a pH test kit. pH is not the same as TA. They are
related, but not in any simple way.
If you find you need to add acid, you'll figure it in terms of an
adjustment to the TA anyway.
- --
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Sources for Foxwhelp trees on M111 stock
From: "Dunlop, Steve" <dunlops@nextnetwireless.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 10:55:36 -0600
Fedco trees has these, among others, for spring shipment.
Steve Dunlop
Nerstrand, MN
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Rotten Egg Aromatics - Wild Ferment
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:18:13 -0800 (PST)
On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 Bob Capshew wrote:
> The original gravity of 1.054 is fine. The yeast have a nutrient deficiency
> which causes the sulphur smell to form. To remove the smell, add one or two
> copper scrub pads that you can find at the grocery store. The sulphur will
> bind to the copper after about a week then you will be free of the smell.
While the copper pads will likely work for the removal of H2S
smell, I would be careful to frequently check the aroma is and remove
the pads as soon as the smell is gone. Maybe better would be to pin the
pad to the bottom of the tank with the inlet end your racking cane and
rack the cider through the pad. If the cider is still actively
fermenting, you can splash it as it enmpties into the new container to
aerate and remove some of the H2S dissolved in the cider. If you leave
copper in contact with the wine too long, you run the risk of getting too
much copper in the wine. Copper can be toxic and it can cause a haze.
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic cultures
From: Scott Slezak <scottslezak2@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 11:41:43 -0800 (PST)
I am making some cider for a friend. The fermentation
has finished, and it is rather acidic. This friend is
rather impatient, so when I suggested waiting for a
malo-lactic fermentation, he jumped on the idea of
buying a malo-lactic culture and giving it a jump
start.
Has anyone used malo-lactic cultures intended for wine
with cider? The Wyeast description says it can
enhance butter and vanilla flavors. Do these come out
to the point of detracting from the cider? Is this
culture (Leuconostoc Oenos) the same stuff that causes
a natural malo-lactic fermentation in cider?
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Proper vessels for drinking cider
From: "Joe Hecksel" <jhecksel@voyager.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 22:30:26 -0500
Hello all:
Attached is Thomas Hardy's (the writer)thoughts regarding the best cup
for drinking cider. This passage is from Chapter 8 of the book Far
>From the Maddening Crowd.
"
`Come, shepherd, and drink. 'Tis gape and swaller with us - a drap of
sommit, but not of much account,' said the maltster, removing from the
fire his eyes, which were vermilion-red and bleared by gazing into it
for so many years. `Take up the God-forgive-me, Jacob. See if 'tis
warm, Jacob.'
Jacob stooped to the God-forgive-me, which was a two-handled tall mug
standing in the ashes, cracked and charred with heat: it was rather
furred with extraneous matter about the outside, especially in the
crevices of the handles, the innermost curves of which may not have
seen daylight for several years by reason of this encrustation thereon -
formed of ashes accidentally wetted with cider and baked hard; but to
the mind of any sensible drinker the cup was no worse for that, being
incontestably clean on the inside and about the rim. It may be observed
that such a class of mug is called a God-forgive-me in Weatherbury and
its vicinity for uncertain reasons; probably because its size makes any
given toper feel ashamed of himself when he sees its bottom in drinking
it empty."
- --
Joe Hecksel
Personal Webpage http://my.voyager.net/~jhecksel
------------------------------
Subject: Foxwhelp
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:15:30 -0800
>This is probably a long shot, but does anyone out there know of a place
>besides Trees of Antiquity who might have Foxwhelp trees for sale on M111
>rootstocks for either shipment now or in the spring?
You might try Nick King at Garcia River Nursery: 707-882-2523. BUT: I
think this is where I got the faux-Foxwhelp that I described a couple of
Digests ago, so maybe this isn't the best source. (It might be as good as
TOA, though, as Nick supplied SAAN with many of the organically-grown trees
that they sold. OTOH, maybe TOA has a true Foxwhelp that they are grafting
from. I got scion wood from SAAN a few years ago, but they haven't fruited
yet.)
Good luck,
Tim
Albion, CA (just up the coast from Nick!)
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic ferment
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 19 Nov 2003 19:28:33 -0800
Tom asked:
>does this [MLF] happen naturally with cider?
Yes, if you're lucky, and if you don't sulfite. Takes a while, though.
>i know with grapes they add a ml
>culture
Which will work in cider, too, but might add a slightly off flavor. I
tried it once and got lousy cider, but I suspect other factors were
responsible. Andrew Lea has more useful information, I think.
>made some cider last year, filtered juice so added champagne yeast
I made cider with champagne yeast a couple of times and got a MLF both
times. If it's not too late, I recommend leaving the cider on the lees for
a few months to encourage the MLF, and maybe some other beneficial
reactions. I did that by accident once and got a really nice result after
about 6 months.
If the juice was sulfited as well as filtered, then you might not get a
spontaneous MLF.
>went from 1076 to 1006
1.006 might not be finished, with champagne yeast... it usually goes
bone-dry, 1.001 or even less.
1076 was pretty heavy, for apple juice. Must have been good apples!
>nice dry cider, but had a slight sulphury smell about it, rather than an
>apple smell
That's champagne yeast for you. Wait a few months and the sulfur smell
should disappear. But the apple aroma is gone forever, I'm afraid.
Cheers,
Tim
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Nervous Questions of a Cider Virgin
From: UUNavyChaplain@aol.com
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 01:06:20 EST
Oh Wise Ones,
I'm making my first batch of Cider. I've been a nervous wreck. I worry
incessantly about it. It's almost as bad as the days before my wife give birth
to our first child! Please calm me with your wisdom! Okay,
1) After about 5 days it started in hard with the fermentation. It doesn't
smell that bad, sweet mostly with a very very slight sulfur smell to it. My
question is that the recipe I was following said to wrack it after 10 days but
the 10th day would be friday and I KNOW it's not going to be done fermenting by
then. Thus, by my logic, I couldn't rack it if I wanted too, being still so
stirred up with fermentation. So do I wait until it stops fermenting? When
should I rack it? Thanks for your advice.
LTJG Eric Johnson, USNR
------------------------------
Subject: rotten egg aromatics
From: "Gilbert Milone" <gilbertmilone@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:30:57 -0500
I too had a batch last december turn sulphuos (using german lager yeast) in
a batch of cider. I waited and waited until this May, it was still
sulphurous. Finally after sitting in a carboy until September, it cleared
and tasty good, although extremely dry.
- -Gil
------------------------------
Subject: High Acidity Cider
From: "Michael Janik" <goldnik@softcom.net>
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 2003 08:16:00 -0800
I scrounged a large batch of Dolgo(?) and Whitney(?) crabs this year,
crushed and fermented. The fermentations stuck at about sg 1.020. I
checked the acidity (x2) and got 1.7% for the Whitney and 3.5% for the
Dolgo batch. I added yeast nutrient to one batch to restart to no avail.
I then combined 2 gal of the Dolgo with 3 gallons of an unknown sweet
apple; fermentation restarted and the sg is now at 1.006 as fermentation
continues; however, the cider is still very tart and tangy.
I plan to try 2 courses of action to lower the tartness:
1) Blend 1 gal crab cider to 5 gal sweet cider.
2) Use wine conditioner and sulfite at bottling to raise sweetness.
Any ideas on how else I can lower the acidity and temper the tart/tangy
taste. (I have about 20 gallons of the acidic crab cider and 30 gal of
sweet apples.)
Thanks.
Michael Janik
Reno, NV, USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1092
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