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Cider Digest #1077
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1077, 18 September 2003
Cider Digest #1077 18 September 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Press Bags/Clothes (Ciderist@aol.com)
KB Leaf Color (Marc Montefusco)
Re: Juice sources (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Cider Digest #1076, 17 September 2003 ("Bill Rhyne")
Re: Crab apples (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Kingston Black Apples ("Drew Zimmerman")
Glue ("5585")
Re: Kingston black apples (Tim Bray)
Re:Crab Apples (Tim Bray)
Introduction and some quick questions... (Tim Bray)
Tasting glasses (Andrew Lea)
Types of tannin (Andrew Lea)
Juice ("John Howard")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Press Bags/Clothes
From: Ciderist@aol.com
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 02:22:59 EDT
Greetings,
I have found that old bed sheets work very well for press clothes. I have
several, Iv'e been using for seven years so far . They show no signs of
deteioration at all. I rinse them with a garden hose and nozzle and then
wash them in the washingmachine. Visit your local thriftstore or yardsale.
Happy Cidering, Shaun shepherd , Portland Or.
------------------------------
Subject: KB Leaf Color
From: Marc Montefusco <mmontefusco@newworldcider.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:02:50 -0400
Re: Jason MacArthur's question about Kingston black leaf color:
Although my KB clones turned out to be spurious (thanks again,
Southmeadow), I have seen healthy plants, and the new leaf color is
consistent with what you describe. Also, I am not aware of any
nutrient deficiency that produces this effect.
Marc Montefusco
New World Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Juice sources
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:45:42 -0400
Dick Nelson writes:
> I do not have an orchard and need to locate a source for juice. Does
> anyone
> have suggestions/recommendations for source(s) anywhere in
> Massachusetts or
> New England for that matter?
One suggestion would be to come to the 9th Annual Franklin Co. Cider
Day festivities on Nov. 1-2. It not only gives you a good opportunity
to meet amateur and professional cidermakers, but you can buy juice in
bulk from Pine Hill Orchards in Colrain. Many people come and have
their carboys filled. Pine Hill Orchards is located on the
Colrain-Shelburne Road, off of Route 2 (the Mohawk Trail), a few miles
west of Greenfield. It's also right next door to West County Winery.
I have purchased cider from Pine Hill before, even though I press my
own juice in October. My recollection is that their blend usually
contains a good bit of Winesap and Golden Russet -- certainly good for
fermentation.
Fortunately, we are still relatively blessed in New England with many
other orchards that seasonally at least press and sell the real,
unpasteurized stuff -- you have to drive there, but it's almost always
worth the trip.
Ben Watson
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1076, 17 September 2003
From: "Bill Rhyne" <rhyne@wli.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:01:09 -0700
RE: glasses of cider
When I was in Rotterdam in Fall of 1994, it was fun to try the different
beers as they each had their own glass for serving that the bar bought from
the vendor. I liked the Chimay Ale glass as far as ones that come to mind
quickly.
A custom glass from the producer does have its advantages as it suggests the
best presentation of the beverage according to the producer's preferences
and it serves to promote the product during consumption at the bar as
everyone can see what you are drinking by the type glass you are drinking
from.
As for Rhyne Cyder, we typically use a champagne flute as a suggestion as it
gives the consumer a chance to enjoy the aroma, color, and little bubbles
in our cider. If we were a bigger operation, we might experiment with the
design but that is for another day.
That is my vote.
Aloha!
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Crab apples
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 12:54:00 -0400
Tim Taylor asks about good varieties of crabapples for cidermaking. I
haven't used a lot myself, but I guess my favorite would be Wickson,
which is sort of arbitrarily called "Wickson Crab" because of its small
size and high acidity.
Conventional wisdom says that Wickson is probably a cross between two
of the greatest North American apples (IMHO) -- Esopus Spitzenburg and
Newtown (Albemarle) Pippin.
Warren Manhart in "Apples for the 21st Century" begs to differ, and
says that it is a cross between two crabs called Spitz and Newtown.
Don't know what sources he's used; it's possible he's right and
everyone else is wrong.
In any case, Wickson though small and very acidic also has a tremendous
amount of sugar, which makes it ideal for cidermaking. Steve Wood has a
lot of Wickson trees at Poverty Lane Orchards, and I usually add at
least a bushel to my cider press schedule if I can get some.
The classic old cider variety, Hewes (or Virginia) Crab was known to
Jefferson, and used extensively. We don't have it up here in New
England. Tom Burford I know still thinks highly of it. If you can get
it where you are, I'd give it a try.
Ben Watson
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Kingston Black Apples
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 09:56:43 -0700
Regarding Jason's questions on Kingston Blacks; I have 7 trees on B9
which are about 5 years old. They are quite healthy and producing lots
of apples. The leaves do have a coppery-purple hue which I consider
normal. Here in Seattle they are slightly prone to scab and powdery
mildew. I use a non-nitrogen fertilizer formulated for the Puget Sound
area that makes up for the deficiencies inherent in the soil.
Drew Zimmerman
------------------------------
Subject: Glue
From: "5585" <5585@email.msn.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:34:58 -0700
I have used epoxy (West System)and urea resin two part glue with good
results. Once they are hardened they are inert and water impermeable.
I also brush the wood with a sealer epoxy to prevent moisture damage. Be
sure to coat the screw holes with epoxy and wait until solid and not
tacky to the touch before reassembly.
Hope this helps
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Kingston black apples
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:38:46 -0700
>Anyone else who has grown KB's- are they susceptible to
>nutrient deficiency or are their leaves just purple?
I grow them, mine are seemingly quite healthy, and they do have bronzed or
purple leaves. The leaves also have an interesting surface texture, kind
of like orange peel. KB also sometimes have odd growth habits - branches
kind of wander around instead of growing in one direction.
One other interesting thing about them - they are supposed to be a late
apple, but here in CA they are very early. Mine are almost ripe now. They
also drop a few before they get ripe, very annoying. (Not as bad about
this as Muscat de Bernay, which seems determined to throw off half its crop!)
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Re:Crab Apples
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:45:53 -0700
>Can anyone recommend their favorite Crab apple to plant and use in
>cider.
Wickson. Vigorous grower, precocious & productive. Good balance and lots
of sugar if the climate gets warm. Ripens about the time most of the other
apples are getting ready, instead of a month too early like most crabs.
I also have Hewe's planted but they aren't bearing yet, so cannot
comment. Whitney is good, but ripens too early (also blooms way too
early). Red Vein is very good, more of a classic crabapple flavour and
makes a beautiful ruby-coloured juice, but ripens very early (first of
September here).
Cheers,
Tim
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Introduction and some quick questions...
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 11:16:10 -0700
>What we are looking for are books on orchard work.
"The Apple Grower" by Michael Phillips - if you're going organic. He's in
Vermont, so plagued with a lot of pests you'll (hopefully) never see, and
his writing style is sometimes corny or frustrating, but there's good
information there.
Two Storey pamphlets: Planning & Planting Your Dwarf Fruit Orchard, and
Grafting Fruit Trees.
WWU will probably have tons of info for you on conventional
chemical-dependency farming. Ooops, my Mendocino is showing! :-) The
nurseries from whom you obtain trees (or scions & rootstock) should be able
to give you all the help you need to get started.
>How to do the Federal paperwork?
Now that's an interesting question... Depending on exactly what you are
doing, there may not even be any. Cider isn't covered specifically by the
beer or wine regulations, and if you stay under 7% alcohol and make it on
your own farm and do not make any other types of alcoholic beverages... you
may not need a Federal permit at all! You would be in the purview of FDA,
and all they regulate is your labeling.
But the situation is complex, and the tax situation especially so - there
seems to be a special tax if your cider is "still" rather than sparkling,
but if you don't have an ATF license this doesn't seem to apply.
>The WA State paperwork seems to be straightforward. The Federal website
>is a bit opaque
No kidding. And the advice you get if you contact the Feds can be just as
opaque, not to mention contradictory. But FDA and ATF both told me that
cider under 7% was solely under jurisdiction of FDA.
>- should we hire a lawyer to run the paperwork through?
Only if you can find one who really is already familiar with the specifics
applicable to hard cider. I would first try getting a written statement
from FDA and/or ATF (or whatever it is now - the Alcohol part is still
Treasury, I think, but the Tobacco and Firearms are in Homeland
Security). If you don't have to go through the Treasury permit you won't
need a lawyer. (For that part, anyway.)
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: Tasting glasses
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:06:32 +0100
John Howard wrote
> I've read that the French, inexplicably, use an opaque vessel for enjoying
> their beautiful ciders.
This is true. Before he died some years ago, my old boss at Long Ashton
Research Station (Fred Beech) gave me a couple of Breton or Norman cider
cups that he too had been given. They are like very flat teacups and
made from red and white glazed opaque earthenware. I can only imagine
this is because many traditional French ciders would have been cloudy so
there was no point in anything transparent! But the shallow profile
means most of the aroma gets quickly lost.
The reception area of the old Taunton Cider Company here in the UK (now
part of Canadaigua /Constellation Brands and shut down) used to have a
wonderful display of cider tasting mugs and glasses for visitors to
admire while they waited. Many UK cider mugs were of highly decorated
earthenware, sometimes with deceits like glazed pottery frogs in the
bottom, or with concealed holes in the handles which had to be blocked
by the fingers to prevent the cider running out all over one's shirt (or
smock?)!
> According to Joan Morgan & Alison Richards, in their wonderful "The Book of
> Apples", Lord Scudmore, an early 17th century English cider connoisseur,
> pioneer of bottled cider, discoverer and promoter of cider apples, used a
> tall narrow specially designed cider flute, similar to what we think of as a
> champagne flute.
A good bottle conditioned cider certainly comes over nicely in one of
those. I also read that some of these glasses were hollow stemmed so
that any yeast sediment would collect in the stem. This sounds to me
rather fanciful since by the time this took place (many hours!), the
cider would have long since gone flat.
Personally I rather like the 250 ml beer glasses that one gets in
Belgium, for cider. They are curved inward at the top hence
concentrating the aroma. Proper ISO wine-tasting glasses have a similar
shape but a longer stem and too small a capacity for enjoyment!
When I'm being a proper flavour chemist I always use an ISO tasting
glass and a watch glass on the top. This concentrates the aromas most
wonderfully after only a few minutes and is definitely the thing to do
if you want to assess a cider critically for aroma quality or aroma defects.
Andrew Lea
------------------------------
Subject: Types of tannin
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:07:03 +0100
Kurt Marshall wrote:
>
> I see that some of you that do not have access to high-tannin apples are
> adding tannin to your juice. What type of tannin are we talking here?
> Its my understanding that tannin isn't just tannin. I have access to a
> powder called "acidum tannicum". Is that acceptable?
There are hundreds of different types of tannins but broadly they fall
into one of two classes called 'condensed' and 'hydrolysable'. Tannin
in cider and wine are of the condensed class (oligomeric procyanidins).
'Acidum tannicum' or tannic acid is a hydrolysable tannin, a
pentagalloyl glucose which comes commercially from plant galls and has
had a widespread pharmaceutical use as an 'astringent'. It won't poison
you, and you wouldn't want to add more than about half a percent of it
to a cider, but only you can judge if it's worthwhile! The general
opinion on this Digest I think has been that adding external sources of
extracted powdered tannin is rather an underwhelmimg experience. Cold
tea might be as good!
Happy experimenting!
Andrew Lea
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Juice
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 17:47:13 -0400
I see two recurring themes on this list, "where can I find good juice for
making cider", and "how can I doctor up the poor stuff I have". I've spent
the last year trying to find someone in southeastern Pennsylvania growing
something besides the ubiquitous dessert apples. Apart from a pair of
elderly gents who have collected a few heirlooms out behind the orchard barn
as the kids pushed out the old varieties, there is nothing out there. I have
finally found a local source of fresh unpasturized juice but its pressed
from whatever surplus dessert apples happen to be going for cheap that week.
This is a sad state of affairs for a region that was once a major apple
growing area with a strong cider tradition.
I was talking to a desert apple grower the other day and when he heard me
suggest that I may have to plant an orchard to make a go of a cider business
his eyes almost popped out of his head. He says, "Why dont you just hit
yourself in the back of the head AND THEN hit yourself in the front!" He
offered to plant and grow whatever I wanted if I'd sign a contract to buy
the apples for 6 cents a pound. As my head has enough lumps already, and I'm
getting thirsty, I may have to take him up on it.
But for now, come the beginning of November, I will be driving several
hundred miles with a couple of empty carboys in the hope of getting some
interesting juice at the CiderDay in Colrain MA.
John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1077
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