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Cider Digest #1096
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Subject: Cider Digest #1096, 5 December 2003
Cider Digest #1096 5 December 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Bladder Press (Terence Bradshaw)
Re: Kegs (Terence Bradshaw)
RE: Cider Digest #1095, 2 December 2003 ("Aubrey Tycer")
Cider v. Apple Wine ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: Bladder press, press design misc (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Re: Bladder Press
From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:50:03 -0500
Thanks all for the input. I am still planning on the rack and cloth,
especially since I already have racks and cloths to use. That bladder
press looks easy, but I was having trouble imagining it working with a
partial load, as well as how I would dump the pummy. My plan for the r&c
press is to get ahold of a 20-ton shop press and make a press bed on it. I
may use a second pneumatic jack for extra stroke length and speed of
operation. I expect I'll chop my 28 inch racks down to 22 or 24. The
eventual plan is to make two moveable press beds on casters so that I can
work on one cheese stack while squeezing the other. I would like the final
beds to be stainless, too, but for the first season I'll go with a wood
box. I remember reading here (from Andrew Lea?) of a recommended rack
pressure of 50-100 psi. I have been basing my press rating and rack size
on that number.
>From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
>Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2003 14:48:49 -0500
>
>Terry ... that's a beautiful piece of equipment for sure but my immediate
>reaction is that I see no specifications for the amount of pressure
>'supported' in a bladder type press. ...etc.
>
>From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
>
>Terry asked about bladder vs rack and cloth presses . I have had both for
>several years and I find I go back to the rack and cloth these days....
>The main reason for going back was that I do fairly small amounts of fruit
>and try to keep track of varietals . The bladder press requires a full load
>and I found myself unwilling to bring it out for a small or partial load .
>The rack and cloth is more flexible and will do any size of load . The
>bladder press is awkward to unload , particularly if you are going for
>second run ...etc.
>
>From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2003 09:45:03 -0600
>
>In CD#1094, Terry asked about using bladder presses for cider.
>
>I'm interested if anyone has any experience trying this. The models I have
>seen typically have a maximum pressure of about 40 psig. I just did some
>figuring, and find that the rack and cloth presses I've used (and built in
>one case) run about 80-100 psig. So I would be concerned about low yield
>from a bladder press. (I'm used to 3.5 to 4 gal/bushel for apples)...etc.
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
madshaw@innevi.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Kegs
From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 20:18:15 -0500
> > Has anyone tried carbonating cider using the same method that beer
> > homebrewers use? My local store calls it "kegging" although it doesn't
> > appear to use a keg in the traditional sense. You place approximately 5
> > gallons in a pressure vessel and add CO2. This sits for about three days
> > and then you inject the carbonated cider into bottles and cap immediately.
> > I've used the more traditional method of adding sugar at bottling time but
> > the problem with this method is I end up with sediment at the bottom of my
> > bottles
I can't really say that I use 'corny' kegs specifically for carbonating,
but they work for that and are an indispensable tool for my needs. I
picked up a kegging system a couple of years ago to serve beer at my
wedding party. I sprang for the tank, regulator, and two kegs. At the
time I was working at a bar and the owner started kicking me a soda keg
every week or two and by the wedding I was up to six. We served four beers
and two ciders and had a helluva time, but I digress.
Since then, I have collected fourteen of them. I use them for transporting
sweet cider from the mill, as they do not break like carboys. I use them
for secondary, especially when fermenting in plastic. The main reason I
acquired so many was to rack off a 55 gallon barrel. I also use them for
bulk ageing, as well as serving. I don't intentionally carbonate but I
apply 10-20 psi to seal the lid, then bleed off. When on tap, I use a
shutoff to keep pressure out of the system unless I'm pouring. The cider
does pick up a little sparkle, but not much. I haven't made the push to a
nitro system.
Kegs can also be used to filter in a closed system. Two kegs can be daisy
chained by connecting the 'out' tube to the 'in' tube of a second keg with
a canister filter between the two. The second keg is pressurized (say at
30 psi) before connecting the two together. Then the first keg is
pressurized at 15 psi. CO2 can then be bled out of the receiving keg until
the flow starts...this is basically a counterpressure system. If multiple
filters are used I could even see it possible to make a naturally sweet,
sparkling cider this way...Maybe I'll try it this year.
I guess my point is, whether or not you'll be using them for force
carbonation, fve-gallon soda kegs are a wonderful all-around tool in the
cidery.
Terry B
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
madshaw@innevi.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1095, 2 December 2003
From: "Aubrey Tycer" <aubrey@igiles.net>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 06:28:42 -0600
I use a bladder press for both grapes and apples. The important technical
factor is the psi that the press will tolerate. Mine operates at 40 psi
which is tremendous pressure. It is very effective and simple to use.
------------------------------
Subject: Cider v. Apple Wine
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 11:56:38 -0600
I can see from the archives that this question has been banged around
before, a couple hundred Digests ago, but I'd like to revisit it. I'm
giving a presentation at an upcoming conference, and am bound to get asked
about it.
What distinction do we cidrephiles (both producers and enjoyers) make
between cider and apple wine?
Merely degree of chaptalization? (Cider being none to ~8% ABV, Apple wine
being 10+% ABV)
What about some kind of character distinction?
My own cider is in the slightly chaptalized category. I do label as a
sparkling apple wine, because my method is so labor intensive that I'm
looking for a higher price point - and (sadly) I don't think the word
'cider' has the reputation. Yet! But that's the only reason for the wine
designation. I call it cider, or cidre otherwise.
To me, the distinction, if only based on degree of chaptalization, is
arbitrary.
I like to think of ciders as being distinct in being light, crisp, and
having a distinct tannin character (ML modified, or not) - and 'apple wine'
as being heavier, more muted, and trying to be something more like a
Reisling than aiming to stake out a unique place.
Other thoughts?
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Bladder press, press design misc
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2003 21:55:46 -0700 (MST)
I had done some measurements and figuring a while back. A typical basket
screw press (HVR, Jaffrey, etc.) will give you between 40 and 60 psi on the
fruit. Keep in mind that the larger the press area (cross-section of the
plate being driven downward), the less pressure on the fruit for the same
amount of leaning on the pole you use to turn the screw.
Following are some notes based on various poking-around, asking questions,
thinking about press designs.
Yes, you can design for higher pressure, but from what I can tell, you
don't gain a lot over 60 psi or so...at least, not unless the rest of the
press design creates good channels for the juice to get out. Long before
you get to higher pressures, the issues will be quality of the milling and
distance the juice has to travel to escape. The latter factor is why a
rack-and-cloth press has it all over a basket press arrangement.
As for water-pressure-driven bladder presses: Typical home water pressure
(and you can get this from a well pump) will be in the 40-60 psi range.
That just happens to be a convenient range for water out of the tap: below
that and it's too slow; above that things start to spray and splatter and
fittings like to leak. (Yes, I've seen home water pressure a lot higher
than 60 psi. I've also seen aging copper supply pipe split along a seam!)
The interesting characteristic of a bladder press is that the size doesn't
matter to the pressure driving it; it just takes longer to "inflate" a
larger bladder. There aren't any high working pressures in the system,
unlike a hydraulic-cylinder arrangement. (That's not to say that a
hydraulic system is a worry. As long as it's made right, there's nothing
wrong with 2000 psi in the driving cylinder.)
John Campbell mentioned the press he's building. He and I had talked off-
digest about this; perhaps it's worth my trying to reconstruct some of the
thoughts (and John can fill in the good stuff I'll surely forget). If you
are contemplating a rack-and-cloth setup driven by a hydraulic cylinder or
a bottle jack (very cheap but effective!), here are some considerations:
* Pressure on the fruit is system force divided by area of a rack.
So for example a 10-ton bottle jack and 15-inch-square racks gives a
little under 90 psi. An active hydraulic system you'd figure just
the way you expect: use cylinder bore to get cross-section, times
working pressure to get total.
* This says you can't use racks with huge surface area or you don't have
enough pressure. Large racks also require more strength in the press
plate and the bed of the press, to keep these from deforming. I've
been impressed (negatively) at how much the bed of my little basket
press deforms. I've also noted that the beds of some English presses
I've seen are made of stone (looked like granite if I recall, tho that
doesn't sound quite right) and were several inches thick!
* You can build the cheese taller by adding more layers of racks/cloths,
and as long you don't make the layers thicker, it won't affect the
efficiency: What matters is being able to get the juice out from the
center of a layer. This is determined by the thickness of the layer
and the effectiveness of channels for the juice.
* One counter-argument to adding more layers is that as the cheese gets
taller relative to width, it becomes less stable. Particularly if you
are pressing dessert/eating apples and/or very ripe (somewhat mushy)
apples, and especially if you're insane enough to press dessert pears,
this risks the cheese slipping and blowing out to the side. Skill
in building the cheese would help here, but won't solve the problem
entirely.
* Another problem with a tall cheese is the travel on the cylinder or
jack that powers the press. Don't hand-wave this problem by thinking
that you will only compress the cheese to half (or some magic number
like 37%) of its starting height, and that this will allow you to use
a shorter-travel cylinder. Think instead about what happens when you
only have 1/3 of a press-load but it's your precious Kingston Blacks
where you want every last drop of juice...but you realize that you
can't drive the press plate down far enough to finish the pressing!
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1096
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