Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1078
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1078, 21 September 2003
Cider Digest #1078 21 September 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Crab Apples (Dick Dunn)
re: finishes and glues 2 ("squeeze")
Crabs ("McGonegal, Charles")
Licensing in the US ("McGonegal, Charles")
Equipment maintenance (David Daly)
cider mill in MA ("Thomas Bashista, Sky Line")
RE: Kingston black apples ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
RE: quick questions... ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
tannins ("Patrick Murphy")
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Crab Apples
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 07:13:21 -0600 (MDT)
Tim Taylor (5585@email.msn.com) asked in CD 1076 about crabapples for cider,
and there were several answers in CD 1077. Recommendation would depend on
where Tim is (I noticed he also asked on the ukcider list). If in the US,
I've had good luck with Dolgo. It produces good-sized apples for what we
think of as specifically a cultivated crabapple variety (as opposed to a
wild/seedling tree)...that is, they're big enough to be easy to pick and
process.
The one downside I see is that Dolgo ripens very early, so you end up having
to save the juice or ferment it separately and blend later.
They have a good flavor, plenty of sugar, lots of acid, only moderate
tannin.
Specific numbers to the above comments, for what I picked here this year:
I picked on 17 August and got juice with SG 1.074 and TA 2.6% as malic.
(Yes, I re-checked that last number!)
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: re: finishes and glues 2
From: "squeeze" <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 06:05:22 -0700
Yes, my belief is no finish is the best finish! And not just 'white' oak -
IMO properly cured tight grain hardwood shouldn't leach or absorb anything
[eucalyptus works fantastic as bed boards on my conveyor]. The acidity
[maybe other things as well] has attacked every type of surface I've had
here over 20 years except wax and the 2 part epoxy paint on the juice
pump, which doesn't have more than occassional splashes on it from the
press. Your mileage may vary, but I put as much as 20,000 gallons thru
each year, so hard on finishes, after a million gallons or so!.
In the beginning I had press racks made of furniture grade alder, which at
the time was being harvested from the bush around here, and the slats were
just nailed w/ stainless brads - no finish - worked ok, but PITA to clean
after a few thousand gallons because of the pectin buildup between pieces.
I went looking for plastic and found some 1/4 to 3/4 thick that was called
High Molecular Density Polypropylene at a "back yard" place called Holden
Plastics that custom makes anything in plastic and deals in all types of
plastic and fiberglas - newer place in town here called Industrial Plastics
and Paint has it now, tho I'd have to order in larger quantities. Had
email enquiries like Dick's so looked on the net a bit and see they do call
it U[ltra] H[igh] M[olecular] W[eight] and H[igh] D[ensity]
P[olypropelen]E. Must be a zillion variations on it now, but if you're
near a major population center, surely you'll have an industrial plastics
supplier about who has access to every type, shape, size of any plastic
material - this is same type material the 'modern' plastic kitchen cutting
boards are made of - seek and ye shall find!!
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: Crabs
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 08:23:57 -0500
I routinely use Dolgo. It ripens a bit early, which is a pain, but has a
good high brix (17 here), decent acidity (20+g/L) and is very aromatic. It
reminds me of an intense Gala. It's only mildly tannic, IMHO.
I've also tried Ralph Shay, which are okay if you let them hang long enough.
You have to keep tasting them and waiting for the harsh astringency to die
down. They make a pink juice.
Can't wait to try my up and coming Hewes and Wickson!
As a side note, my Binet blanc look suspiciously like they have a large crab
heritage. They flower like mad, something that I associate with 'crab-ism'
Charles McGonegal
Aeppeltreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Licensing in the US
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2003 10:05:24 -0500
I found the ATF aka TTB (Trade and Taxation Bureau) to be very easy to deal
with. I suppose a lawyer could work up the forms - but they really aren't
all that difficult to fill out. The Cincinnatti Revenue Center even had me
fax in copies to vet them for obvious problems before I signed them.
I'm pretty sure the monthly winery operations report has a specific column
for hard cider - so at some level they must anticipate that cider will be
made in a winery. Likewise, the tax forms for my state (Wisconsin) all
presume that cider is being made in a winery - and the state permits require
the ATF permit number ahead of time.
That said, what the ATF told me (I understand that answers seem to vary) was
that cider under 7% isn't wine, and doesn't require a COLA (label approval)
from the ATF - but that they still collect the taxes - and that they collect
the taxes through the winery structure. As noted by others, the FDA has
some jurisdiction over cider under 7%. (One of the reasons my cider is 8% -
I only deal with the ATF that way) BUT, they do note that an exception
exists for cider under certain circumstances. Roughly - IF you make cider
on your own farm, with your own fruit, and do NO corrections or additions
(acid,sugar, enzymes, anything) and NO processing (disgorging, bottle
pastuerizing, etc) you MAY be able to sell it FROM YOUR PROPERTY ONLY
without a federal permit or maybe even federal taxes.
That's really restrictive - I would definitely get a lawyer to go over the
law and your plan with a fine tooth comb. Maybe too restrictive for
practical business considerations. Though it might allow a person to sell
'apfel most' at their farm stand.
The legal structure of a winery is certainly a more beaten path to follow.
It has fair amount of paperwork - but good organization makes it tolerable
(I think). Maybe states with lots of wineries (say, the west coast ones)
put more state level regulation on them. But I would not be scared of the
Feds. This year.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Equipment maintenance
From: David Daly <great_pumpkin74@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 12:06:51 -0700 (PDT)
Hi All,
A quick query on equipment maintenance. My bottling
bucket got accidentally sprayed with Lysol the other
day (long story)and I'm wondering whether its still
useable or whether I should just replace it. I quckly
rinsed it with warm water and filled it with a
triple-strength bleach solution (still soaking in
this)in an efort to save it. I have a ready batch of
black currant cider waiting to to be bottled, so any
quick responses would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
Dave Daly
------------------------------
Subject: cider mill in MA
From: "Thomas Bashista, Sky Line" <skyline@crocker.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 21:20:22 -0400
Dick Nelson from Dover, Massachusetts wrote "I do not have an orchard and
need to locate a source for juice. Does anyone
have suggestions/recommendations for source(s) anywhere in Massachusetts or
New England for that matter?"
At Bashista Orchards in Southampton, MA, we make fresh cider for our
roadside stand and for wholesale. We fill many carboys yearly for local
cidermakers, either treated with UV or untreated.
I have been making hard cider with raisins and wild concord grapes, my
favorite combo, for nearly ten years.
Tom Bashista
skyline@crocker.com
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Kingston black apples
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:31:22 -0700
We have a number of Kingston Black, a few have purple leaves, as do a few
others in the orchard. It is probably a nutrient deficiency. We spray with
both zinc and boron each year as well put on a K-Mag mix but likely miss a
few. The best way to sort this out is to get an leaf or soil analysis to see
what the problem is.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: quick questions...
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Fri, 19 Sep 2003 22:31:28 -0700
Western Washington has a number of people interested and experienced in
cider. You might start by talking with Gary Moultin at the Mt.Vernon
Research Station. We have a list of reference material on our web site at
http://www.rockisland.com/~baylonanderson/. The federal paperwork is time
consuming but it can be worked through. It just takes time to get it done
and processed, allow at least 3-4 months and it needs to be completed to get
the state permit finalized.
------------------------------
Subject: tannins
From: "Patrick Murphy" <themurphy@hotmail.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Sep 2003 21:52:44 +0000
Australian labelling laws have recently been changed, or are in the process
of changing, to introduce a requirement to identify, where appropriate, that
chestnut tannins may be present in a wine or cider product. Chestnut tannin
is used as a cheap alternative to grape tannin and oak tannin in wine
making.
This was reputedly brought about by one single case of an allergic reaction
to chestnut tannin.
This does create some issue for the use of both Spanish and French ciders,
where the practice is to use chestnut wood during the maturation process, in
Australia.
Does anyone know anything about allergic reactions to chestnut tannin and
are there similar laws alsewhere?
Patrick Murphy
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1078
*************************
