Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1097
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1097, 8 December 2003
Cider Digest #1097 8 December 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider v. Apple Wine (Dick Dunn)
Carbonation in 15 E-Z Lessons (Stephen Butts)
CD 1096 Re: Bladder Press; a clarification (Terence Bradshaw)
flavour development in cider (Alistair Bell)
Re: Cider vs Apple Wine (Robert Sandefer)
Carbonating Cider ("Drew Zimmerman")
Re: Cider Digest #1096, 5 December 2003 (Bill Rhyne)
Re: Cider Digest #1096, 5 December 2003 (Michael Arighi)
This Fall's ferment ("James W Luedtke")
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider v. Apple Wine
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 09:59:58 -0700 (MST)
Charles McGonegal <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com> asked:
> What distinction do we cidrephiles (both producers and enjoyers) make
> between cider and apple wine?
> Merely degree of chaptalization? (Cider being none to ~8% ABV, Apple wine
> being 10+% ABV)
> What about some kind of character distinction?
...
> To me, the distinction, if only based on degree of chaptalization, is
> arbitrary.
Well, there's the so-called "New England cider" that's heavily chaptalized
and relatively high alcohol, but nobody seems to call it a wine, so I'm not
sure what that means.
However, excepting that style, I've noticed that people mainly seem to think
of cider as not chaptalized (except with poor apples, if needed to bring the
OG up) and apple wine as sugared up to get it over the 10% mark...so less a
matter of "how much" than "whether" to chaptalize.
> I like to think of ciders as being distinct in being light, crisp, and
> having a distinct tannin character (ML modified, or not) - and 'apple wine'
> as being heavier, more muted, and trying to be something more like a
> Reisling than aiming to stake out a unique place.
Funny, but I get the opposite reaction! To me, an apple wine is for
"sipping", as with a dry white wine, and I wouldn't be surprised at a
delicate character. I've served Charles's "Appely" in the same way I'd
serve a champagne.
A cider (again MNSHO) ought to be heartier (that's not quite the word I
want but it sort of conveys the idea) and also "refreshing". It suggests
more "quaffing" than "sipping". My preference for a cider is to be around
6-7% abv, so about half of a table wine, and correspondingly I'd generally
have twice as much at a sitting.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Carbonation in 15 E-Z Lessons
From: Stephen Butts <buttss@Lawrence.edu>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:34:40 -0600
Cider Colleagues --
For what it's worth, here's what I do to carbonate
plain water for selzer, homemade root beer and
(occasionally) cider in relatively small quantities
without great expense, but, to my surprise, great
success:
1. I assume you have or can get a cylinder of CO2, a
regulator and the appropriate length of tubing.
2. Obtain the following items:
-- a half-dozen or so clean, empty plastic soda pop
bottles with their caps. Any size, from 16-oz. to 2-
liter is fine.
-- a tube of Elmer's "Stix-All" glue.
-- a tube of glue-type sealant, e.g., for repairing
rubber stuff.
-- a half dozen or so cheap, rubber automobile tire
(for Andrew, tyre) air valves.
-- an air chuck used to fill auto tires with air.
This is the metal thing that is attached to the end
of the air pressure hose that covers the valve stem
when you add air to your tires. It is available at
any auto parts store for less than ten bucks (6
quid). If you can, get one that has a lever attached
which will lock the chuck onto the valve stem.
-- one hose clamp (screw-type) for the CO2 tubing.
-- a package of common sewing pins.
-- a yard or so of 5/16" plastic tubing, the semi-
rigid stuff.
3. Drill a hole in each bottle cap just big enough
for the valve stem. Make sure the valve fits in
snugly, from the bottle-side, with its stem out the
top, and that its flange on the inner side does not
take up the whole space of the surface inside the cap
- -- you need to allow enough space for the rim of the
bottle to fit against the inside of the top of the
cap.
4. Use the Stix-All to glue the flat flange of the
valve against the flat underside of the cap. The cap
will have a very slick, plastic seal that will
contact and be forced down on the rim of the bottle
to keep the pressure in, and no glue should come in
contact with this portion of the seal. The Stix-All
is the only glue I've tried so far that works on this
seal; if you find a better one, please let me know.
5. Allow this glue to dry for a day.
6. You now have a cap-with-valve that will seal the
bottle but which is not very strong mechanically. To
remedy this, take three of the pins and push them
through the rubber part of the valve stem
horizontally, in an over- lapping triangular pattern,
so that they each rest firmly against the outside
flat top of the cap. They will form a support
structure for the valve.
7. Seal the whole top of the cap where the valve stem
sticks out with the thick, rubber-type glue. Allow to
dry.
8. Attach the air chuck to the pressure hose from the
CO2 tank with the hose clamp.
9. Cut 4" or so of the plastic tubing and fit it into
the tire valve so that it will fit into the bottle
when the cap is on.
10. Fill a bottle with COLD still cider, leaving 1-2"
air at the top. Screw on the cap- with-valve loosely.
11. Purge air from the hose by running a bit of CO2
through it.
12. Attach the air chuck to the valve stem as if you
were filling an auto tire. Squeeze the plastic bottle
so the cider rises to fill the whole space at the
top. Screw the cap on tightly.
13. Adjust the valve on the CO2 tank so that the gas
flows into the bottle and bubbles through the 5/16"
tubing inside. I use about 5 atmospheres pressure.
14. Keeping the gas on, shake the bottle vigorously
for a minute or so. You will see the gas bubbles
continue to enter the bottle. Turn the gas OFF.
15. Carefully but quickly remove the chuck from the
stem.
You now have a serving-sized bottle of sparkling
cider. I would refrigerate it for a day or so to
allow the CO2 to dissolve fully.
SAFETY NOTE: BE SURE TO USE PLASTIC BOTTLES
SUITABLE FOR CARBONATED BEVERAGES!!! Do NOT
use the thinner, bottled water containers, and DO NOT use glass!!
To my utter astonishment, this crazy setup actually
works, and well. I get nicely carbonated water for
four cents a 6-pack instead of $2.50, I buy quinine
water and soda in the big, cheap 2-liter sizes and
simply re-carbonate it when it goes flat, and
anything else I want to have fizzy. And I don't need
to hunt around for and mess with Cornelius kegs or
other specialzed equipment.
Enjoy!
- -- Steve Butts (in southern Wisconsin)
------------------------------
Subject: CD 1096 Re: Bladder Press; a clarification
From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:21:51 -0500
Our good digest janitor e-mailed me regarding some confusion over
this. When I refer to a pneumatic jack, I mean a pneumatically driven
hydraulic bottle jack. It's the same as a standard bottle jack with the
addition of an air-driven pump which allow you to forego busting your arm
off pumping and pumping. Northern Tools has a 20-ton model here:
http://makeashorterlink.com/?Q63433AB6
Many others make similar units. They really are a convenient,
cost-effective source of power, assuming you have an air compressor.
TB, will keep the list posted on the developments...
>Subject: Re: Bladder Press
>From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
>Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2003 19:50:03 -0500
>
>
> My plan for the r&c
>press is to get ahold of a 20-ton shop press and make a press bed on it. I
>may use a second pneumatic jack for extra stroke length and speed of
>operation. I expe
=================================================================
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
(802)229-2004
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented are mine and mine only...
------------------------------
Subject: flavour development in cider
From: Alistair Bell <albell@shaw.ca>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 12:47:33 -0800
File this posting under "stating the bleedin' obvious", but I've noticed
over the years how the apple flavour of cider changes during fermentation
and maturation.
I mean a progression such as:
sweet apple flavoured juice->slightly bubbly, less sweet apple
flavour->pretty dry, very, very slightly bubbly and not particularly apple
flavoured, indeed not particularly nice tasting->to the final dry, aromatic
apple scent and flavoured cider.
Of course there are lots of chemical changes going on from the end of
primary fermentation to the final product, but it continues to amaze me how
the apple flavour "disappears" only to return in the end.
Alistair
PS Derek, yes, I ought to get up to Cobble Hill area and have a look around
Merridale's operation.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider vs Apple Wine
From: Robert Sandefer <melamor@vzavenue.net>
Date: Fri, 05 Dec 2003 15:58:07 -0500
In my personal attempts to rationalize and categorize the variety of
alcoholic beverages and maintain a certain degree of parsimony, I have
come to favor the position that cider is apple wine and that apple wine is
cider.
To my knowledge there are three sources of sugar and flavor for alcoholic
beverage production: honey, grain, and fruit. Thus, the three fermented
ethanol-containing beverages are: mead, beer, and wine.
Some grape wine proponents may object to such a wide classification of
wine (rather than just the fermented juice of Vitis vinefera), but my
question has always been: How does other fruit differ from grapes? Why do
grapes get the nod for being "wine" while other fruits produce cider,
perry, or wild or country wine? There are of course differences betwen
grapes, apples, etc, but I have always thought of them as differences in
degree rather than in kind--i.e., quantitative rather than qualitative.
I have nothing against the word "cider" except for for the fact that it is
redundant; it means the juice of the apple fermented. How is that not
wine? Add in the consideration that cider has been corrupted in America to
mean juice, and apple wine seems better and better.
Let us break the monopoly of grapes upon the term of wine.
Robert Sandefer
Arlington, VA
------------------------------
Subject: Carbonating Cider
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@comcast.net>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 17:45:09 -0800
[Janitor's note: Pictures to illustrate Drew's filler, described here, may
be seen at:
http://www.talisman.com/cider/cpf.html
]
I've been carbonating my cider in Cornelius kegs for the last three
seasons. It works very well and I prefer it over in-bottle
fermentation. You can control exactly how much carbonation goes into
the cider and there aren't lees left in the bottle that may provide food
for spoilage organisms, plus there are no clouds in your glass from the
bottom of the bottle. After 6 to 8 months it is almost impossible to
tell the difference between this method and in-bottle fermentation. I
know I'm probably going to start another great debate, but I think the
belief that forced carbonation makes bigger bubbles and doesn't last as
long isn't true. As long as the CO2 is dissolved in the cider and it
remains under pressure in the bottle, it doesn't make any difference how
it got there. The size of the bubbles has more to do with the length of
time in the bottle than how they got there.
I bought a hand counter pressure bottle filler from my local home
brewing supplier and followed the instructions for carbonating and
bottling beer. Cider is much easier than beer, less foam. I found I
like about 20 psi in the keg and refrigerate for up to 3 days. Shaking
the keg repeatedly speeds up the CO2 absorption. You can hand hold the
bottle filler, but it gets kind of crampy after a case or two, so I
built a bottling station out of plywood. There were pictures on the
internet of one that someone else built, but they're gone now. It's an
up and down sliding piece of plywood with a three-eights thick steel
plate attached to the back for weight to hold the pressure in the
bottle. I mounted the counterpressure filler on the plywood, added some
hinges and a handle to raise it up and down and I'm in business. It
takes about a minute and a half to fill a 750 and about half that to
fill a 12 ounce beer bottle. I made an improved version with two
counterpressure fillers so I can bottle twice as fast. I can bottle up
a keg full (15 US gallons) in a couple of hours.
Here's some stuff I found out:
Fill the Cornelius kegs completely when carbonating, or purge them
carefully with CO2 if carbonating less than 5 gallons. I had a bunch of
3 gallon batches oxidize very quickly in the bottle because I forced 2
gallons of air into the cider along with the CO2!
Try to find a counterpressure filler with all stainless steel
components. Some of them have brass fittings and copper tubing which
may work for beer, but it's a bad idea to use with acid cider. There is
at least one supplier on line that makes stainless fillers, or you can
make your own.
Do a good job of cleaning and sanitizing. There is quite a bit of hose
and fittings, not to mention the kegs.
You can filter the cider crystal clear with cartridge filters prior to
carbonating. Use 10" water filter canisters and push the cider from one
keg thru the filters to another keg with CO2. You will need to use a 1
micron (nominal) as the pre-filter and .2 micron (nominal) as the final.
Make sure the cider is clear before filtering to get the best life out
of the filters. Store the filter cartridges in an alkaline cleaning
solution or SO2 solution and purge thoroughly before each run. This is
not sterile filtration, so don't expect this to be a way to stabilize
sweetened cider.
Contact me off digest if you want some supplier contacts.
Drew Zimmerman
Seattle
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1096, 5 December 2003
From: Bill Rhyne <theo9us@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2003 19:57:29 -0800 (PST)
RE: Apple cider versus apple wine
Historically, cider was made from apples and wine was
made from grapes so if you are a traditionalist, you
might stick with those definitions.
The US BATF makes the distinction that cider is under
7% alcohol and wine is above 7% and their purposes are
for taxation guidelines.
Because the the terms cider and wine have been abused
in the market so much that most consumers don't know
what cider really means and what wine really means
that a producer needs to try to offer some clarity and
honesty so that consumers can figure out what they are
buying-- naturally fermented apple juice or fermented
sugar water with apple essence or pear essence or
peach essence, etc. Then the consumers can decide what
meets their interests and pocket book. If the consumer
cannot truly distinguish a producer's naturally
fermented apple juice from the artificial version,
then the chances for a market for a naturally
fermented product may offer no value and may
disappear.
Think about cotton versus polyester clothing, leather
versus vinyl upholstery. The natural materials
manufacturers had to readjust their market appeal to
survive and then as the consumer learned about each
new material, the consumer was able to make a more
informed choice. Since there is so little mass
produced naturally fermented cider in the market
place, the burden for a small producer is to educate
one by one each customer as to the taste differences.
This is a very slow and expensive task for any one
company to achieve. In the US, we have about 160 years
of lost cultural memory of a cider tradition so it is
a big task. The longest journey begins with the first
step. May the force be with you, Luke!
One man's humble opinion.
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder, Inc.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1096, 5 December 2003
From: Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Date: 06 Dec 2003 00:12:18 -0800
On Fri, 2003-12-05 at 08:14, Dick Dunn wrote:
> * You can build the cheese taller by adding more layers of racks/cloths,
> and as long you don't make the layers thicker, it won't affect the
> efficiency: What matters is being able to get the juice out from the
> center of a layer. This is determined by the thickness of the layer
> and the effectiveness of channels for the juice.
One suggestion I've seen and had some success with is to add a press
aid. This is a semi-inert organic material that physically forms
channels. In our area (northern California), one material widely used
commercially in pressing sweet cider is rice hulls. They're stiff enough
to provide a little space in the cake, allowing room for the juice to
flow out. I've seen straw mentioned as an old-fashioned press aid.
<snip>
> * Another problem with a tall cheese is the travel on the cylinder or
> jack that powers the press. Don't hand-wave this problem by thinking
> that you will only compress the cheese to half (or some magic number
> like 37%) of its starting height, and that this will allow you to use
> a shorter-travel cylinder. Think instead about what happens when you
> only have 1/3 of a press-load but it's your precious Kingston Blacks
> where you want every last drop of juice...but you realize that you
> can't drive the press plate down far enough to finish the pressing!
> - ---
> Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
I'm trying to visualize why this would be a problem? When I'm on the
last run on the press, I often only have half my usual number of
"cheeses." I just put on my pressure plate (in my case doubled two by
sixes laid crosswise to each other and fixed with brass screws) and add
some short 4" x 4" chunks as cribbing, building up crossed cribbing
units until I'm at a good height for the travel on the shaft of my
bottle jack. Likewise, if I get the whole unit cranked down to where I
don't have any more travel, I just add some 4" x 4"s until I have travel
again. Am I missing something here?
- --
Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
------------------------------
Subject: This Fall's ferment
From: "James W Luedtke" <james.luedtke@cgi.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Dec 2003 12:54:36 -0600
I'm pleased and relieved to say my first successful wild yeast
fermentation is underway. I sulfited at 2 campden/7 gallons, left it
lightly covered in a chilly garage for a few days, then put it under
airlock in a room that stays in the lower 50's F. It took 2 1/2 weeks
for CO2 to be visibly bubbling, but now after another 5 days it's
chugging along nicely. I also have a small batch close by fermenting
with ale yeast, so it's possible the 'wild' could be ale
cross-contamination, but I'm hoping otherwise.
The wild yeast batch varieties are Haralson, Honeygold, Sweet 16, Golden
Russet, Macintosh, and what few Bulmer's Norman and Breakwells I had.
Was pleased with the high sugar content and body of the Golden Russet
juice - don't have the figures in front of me, but I know the SG was
well above 1.060. As I recall, the final mix was 1.062.
The smaller batch fermenting with the ale yeast was mostly from juice
pressed and frozen earlier in the season. It was bland, & SG = 1.046, so
decided to chaptalize (I think that's the word), a bit with both cider
syrup (juice cooked down to 1/4 volume), and partially thawed juice.
That brought up the SG to 1.060. I know cooking down the juice is
frowned upon, and I hope I don't end up with a cooked flavor in the
finished cider. However I thought it might be a way to improve the bland
stuff I started with.
Jim Luedtke
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1097
*************************
