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Cider Digest #1104
Subject: Cider Digest #1104, 1 January 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1104 1 January 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
re: BJCP & Cider Guidelines ("Mark Tumarkin")
Re: cider styles and NY Times tasting (Tim Bray)
Re: Micro-brew draft cider advice? (Dick Dunn)
Cider Mills (the modified garbage disposal unit) ("Ira Edwards")
Good commercial ciders / perries in Australia? (Ross McKay)
Re: BJCP and cider judging (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: re: BJCP & Cider Guidelines
From: "Mark Tumarkin" <mark_t@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:39:58 -0500
Gary brought up some concerns re the BJCP and Cider. Bill Slack (and
others) have replied to Gary's issues very adequately, IMHO.
Still, I thought I'd throw in my 2 cents. Like Bill, I'm a long-time
lurker/reader of this forum, but rarely have I posted. I also read (and
sometimes post) to the Mead & Distilled Beverage forums. While I've
initially approached these beverages from the perspective of my primary
interest in home-brewed beer, I certainly respect the differences between the
various bevarages. I read this forum because of my interest in learning more
about Cider, not because I think it's a variety of beer.
As has been pointed out, the BJCP has included mead & cider in the style
guidelines because they are other beverages being made by homebrewers. This
allows them to be entered in & feedback received from the many homebrew
competitions. There are homebrewers (led by the estimable Fred Eckhardt) who
would like to
see sake added to the BJCP guidelines. There is interest in this, but the
numbers of entries doesn't justify it.....yet. Wine has more than adequate
opportunities for competition, and it's illegal for us to make distilled
beverages at home, so it's unlikely that the BJCP guidelines will ever
include wine or tequila (and no, I don't think either of these are
varieties of beer).
The idea of separate associations for mead and cider is another issue.
Should someone step up and form either or both, I'd probably become a
member .... in addition to my memberships in the AHA & BJCP. I would see
this as beneficial and not competing with either of the other aspects of my
hobby - or either of the other organizations. Still, until that happens, I'm
glad that the BJCP provides guidelines for competitions that can also include
mead & cider. Are most BJCP judges qualified to judge cider? or mead? Probably
not, though a good number
truly are. But... no one else is doing it and this is part of how we develop a
group of educated, qualified judges. But that's a whole nother topic &
discussion.
This just rehashes what's already been said. To get to the real reason
for my post; the BJCP is currently re-working the beer style guidelines....
including cider, perry, and mead. I am on the Guidelines Committee and have
already contacted Dick Dunn and several others for input & expertise. We plan
on completing our initial work and getting the guidelines out for comment &
feedback, and then subsequently accepted for use as early in 2004 as possible.
Though it's too early in the process to say how they'll end up, we will almost
certainly be expanding the cider style sub-categories (including perry). If
you have any
suggestions to offer on changes or additions to the guidelines, you can either
reply here or directly to me. I'll see that your concerns & suggestions are
considered by the committee (several
of whom also read this forum). Of specific interest would be proposed
sub-category breakdowns, along
with the profiles (aroma, appearance, flavor, etc) that distinguish these
subcategories, and also good commercial examples for the various
subcategories.
Mark Tumarkin
Hogtown Brewers
Gainesville, FL
mark_t@ix.netcom.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider styles and NY Times tasting
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:49:53 -0800
John Howard wrote:
>The fact that the Times made a muddle of their cider tasting is
>disappointing but not surprising, and simply proves Ben's point;
>understanding of cider in the US has a long way to go. The upshot is that
>there were 3 cider articles (that I am aware of) in the Times in 2003. That
>must be a record.
Harbinger of momentum, I hope! Whether the tasting was bungled or not is
almost irrelevant; at this stage of the game, it's the attention and
recognition - the publicity - afforded to cider that is most important.
>I'm surprised there aren't more people
>here in the US emulating the French style, particularly given the neophyte
>consumer's inclination toward sweeter ciders. Most US artisanal cider
>producers seem to recognize the sweet market factor and try to be
>accommodating but frankly, the ones I've tasted are missing the complexity
>of French ciders by a wide margin. As my son would say, "What's up with
>that?"
Short answer: because it is extremely difficult to replicate Norman-style
ciders in the US. The reasons _why_ this is so are complex. Normans have
certain natural advantages: unique flora, for one thing, and an entirely
different agricultural/economic setting for another. Where in the US would
you obtain large quantities of cider fruit, from mature trees grown in
grazed pasture land? Just take a close look at the prices of some of those
Norman ciders and you'll spot another problem: they are cheap! We can
sometimes get Duche de Longueville 'Muscadet de Dieppe' here in CA, for
around $3.50 a bottle. How could anyone in America possibly craft a true
Norman-style cider for anything like that price?
If I sound frustrated, it's because I have been going around and around
trying to figure out how to do this myself. I have basically given up and
plan to make more of an English-style dry cider instead. Even for that,
sourcing fruit is my biggest stumbling block.
BTW, fascinating and thoughtful discussion about cider judging. I don't
have anything to add, but am finding the discussion enlightening.
Cheers,
Tim
Albion, CA
Albion Works
Furniture and Accessories
For the Medievalist!
http://www.albionworks.net
http://www.albionworks.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Micro-brew draft cider advice?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:56:39 -0700 (MST)
Tracy Camp <campt@polyserve.com> asked for advice re:
> ...I've got it in my head that I need to start a
> micro-brewery dedicated to draft cider...
One piece of almost-trivial advice: Stop using the word "brew" when you're
talking about cider! Cider isn't brewed. It might make that slight bit of
difference when you're trying to get someone to take you seriously.
Also, the place where cider is made isn't a brewery. Legally, it's a
winery.
Next suggestion: think about why you see it as important to have "draft"
cider. (I'm assuming you mean "draft" in the dictionary, traditional sense
of the word, and not the way industrial cider-makers use the word on their
bottled ciders!) Is it just the idea of not being tied to the bottle size
as a unit for serving?
Realize that when you try to promote a cider in a keg to a bar or "pub",
you're competing for a tap handle. You have to convince them that you
should displace one of their existing on-tap beers...that means convincing
them that they will sell enough of your product to offset that loss. And
while a pub could stock scores of different bottled products, most will
have only a few taps...perhaps half a dozen but often fewer.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Mills (the modified garbage disposal unit)
From: "Ira Edwards" <ira_j_e@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 21:59:45 -0900
I know that this was hashed over on the CD this summer and fall, but now
that everyone who was going to use one of these units as a grinder has
had a change to use it, how did it go? Were there any off flavors from
the non stainless parts of the unit reacting with the acids in the
apples? Any suggestions on further ways to set them up? I believe only
a couple of guys had used them, but I am working on building a hydraulic
press (plans a la Proulx.) and am moving on the acquisition of materials
to make a mill. This seems like the nicest way to grind a large batch
of the apples.
Thanks in advance,
Ira Edwards
Anchorage, Alaska
------------------------------
Subject: Good commercial ciders / perries in Australia?
From: Ross McKay <rosko@zeta.org.au>
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 11:32:01 +1100
G'day,
All this talk of tastings has me feeling quite alone and isolated in my
little corner of the world. I'd love to taste, evaluate and compare a
selection of fine ciders and perries, but alas - all I can generally lay
my hands on are my own, or Bulmer's "finest". If I'm lucky, I can find a
Mercury from Tasmania, and I believe I found something called Scrumpy
Jack some time ago, but that's about it.
So, do any other Aussies on this list know of sources of good cider and
perry that I can taste? Whilst I'm quite happy to drink my own
concoctions (even the slightly dodgy ones), I'd love to find some other
examples. As it is, I don't really know whether what I've made is
anything like any other ciders (and no, I don't class Wrongbow as good
cider!)
I heard some time back about something called Sydney Cider (and also
Melbourne Cider?) but have never seen one in the shops, nor anything
else from Victoria. Also, I've never seen an imported cider anywhere. As
for perry, "isn't he the guy with the fish and chip shop on the corner?"
Perhaps I'm just going to the wrong shops, so a gentle shove in the
right direction would be nice!
I'm in Lake Macquarie NSW, but will happily drive north, south or west
up to 250km (i.e. day trip) to find even one cider or perry that is
worth tasting. Also, if you know of an Aussie shop that will deliver to
NSW, then I'm willing to give it a shot if the price isn't exorbitant.
And before someone suggests that I volunteer to be a judge at a
competition:
1) I haven't experience in tasting ciders other than mine; see above
2) Someone who has tasted ciders at beer comps was startled that I
didn't use a kit to "brew" my cider, and I'd rather not do that to my
palate again...
Also quite willing to meet others from this list. I have two ciders that
I can bring with me, plus one that I'll leave at home :)
cheers,
Ross.
- --
Ross McKay, WebAware Pty Ltd
"The lawn could stand another mowing; funny, I don't even care"
- - Elvis Costello
------------------------------
Subject: Re: BJCP and cider judging
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2003 23:37:32 -0700 (MST)
This is a scattershot reply on several related ideas.
"Bill Slack" <wrs@slack.org> explained some of the origin of the current
BJCP guidelines and his role with them. Thanks, Bill, but I think there's
a point that you (and probably others) missed. Bill said:
> ...I rewrote the guidelines with the
> intent to identify the categories that the entries typically were collapsed
> into based on our experince during the past year. Its purpose was to make
> the competitions less unwieldy, not to deny the existence of all the worthy
> categories of cider and perry, especially those styles from the UK, France
> and Northern Spain...
The problem is *not* merely that there aren't separate style sub-categories
for those regional styles. It's that the criteria--the descriptions of
characteristics (we're talking 26A, Standard Cider and Perry here)--would
eliminate those ciders. You couldn't enter a perfect Norman or English West
Country cider and expect to do well; the criteria rule against it.
Ben Watson wrote:
> I agree with someone who once said of "competitions" that there is
> really no one who is yet qualified to be a cider judge -- the various
> individual styles made by cidermakers in the U.S. are just beginning to
> reflect a character and a quality that lends itself to comparison
> across particular narrow categories...
I think we're just barely there but I think we *are* ready. See the notes
on the competition held by the NWCS in November (see CD 1090 for a
summary). There were things that could have been done better; it was
surely a learning experience. But the results were sensible; moreover, the
judges were in substantial agreement throughout, which is a severe test.
> It's human nature to try and rank different products against each other
> and try to select the "best". But cider is such an idiosyncratic and
> personal drink right now, that I'm not sure what we gain by pitting
> cideries against each other, even in friendly competition...
This suggests that Ben is a not-so-competitive sort, which is fine. And I
find myself in the curious position that I don't mind judging a competition
but I wouldn't enter one! So, there is one intermediate stage--I've seen
this discussed in various places--to recognize ciders which meet quality
criteria, a sort of "certificate of merit", but stop at that and not rank
them.
Gary Awdey said:
> > The other thing that bothers me about this is the risk that a
> > relatively active beer group will fill a niche and slow the
> > development of an
> > independent organization for promotion of cider.
"Brian Lundeen" <blundeen@rrc.mb.ca> reacted:
> Well guess what, the only thing slowing you and mead lovers down is a
> complete lack of action on your parts to develop something comparable...
No, it's not a complete lack of action. It *is* moving slowly, to be sure,
but as Ben Watson elaborated, the state of cider in North America is still
developing and it might be premature to go whole-hog into competition
before we've got the ground mapped out.
> ...Look, we brewers know that we are not mead and cider
> experts. Dick has told us so. ;-)...
Ever wonder what ya said to make people say what they do? I don't know in
this case what it was, but it seems like stating the obvious that being a
beer expert doesn't make you a cider expert (or a wine expert or a sausage
expert). Oh, well...
>...But until such time as you want to take
> the initiative and create organizations that better meet your needs, why not
> try thanking the BJCP for at least offering a place for cider and mead
> makers to compete, however flawed they might be...
The problems with the existing BJCP cider guidelines are serious enough
that a "cider type" (who hasn't come around through the path of homebrewing
and/or meadmaking) has a valid point asking whether the BJCP is actually
helping cidermakers at all. And I'm not trying to *answer* that question,
but I'm saying there is enough of a problem that it makes sense to *ask*
the question.
Terry Bradshaw's comments are telling--not that he isn't a competition
winner (irrelevant) but that he sees the ciders he's entered being ranked
upside-down because the judges don't know what cider should be like.
More feathers are going to have to be ruffled before this is done.
>...And instead of chastizing
> the OP for his original request for commercial examples as being
> insufficient, credit him for not just going out and picking up a bottle of
> Strongbow, and deciding that was enough for his purposes.
That as a parting shot would have more sting, were it not for the fact that
the existing guidelines suggest Hornsby's as a commercial example! At
least Strongbow has some vestigial evidence of cider character, sort of the
Coors Light of cider. But Hornsby's?!? What is that stuff, anyway??
And there's a dilemma in the idea of going out and buying some excellent
examples of commercial ciders: On the one hand it is obvious and necessary
in order to put ciders in front of people so they can learn. There is no
other way to teach people about cider tastes; "book learning" is impossible,
so Al Boyce is trying to do what needs to be done. But on the other hand
you can't just go out and buy excellent commercial ciders. In a few small
areas of the US you can find maybe a few good ciders; in many areas, none
at all. It's a beer-world expectation that you can get those commercial
examples. Where does this dilemma leave us? I think we're back at Ben
Watson's contention that it's premature for serious competition.
If you set your mind to it, and give yourself a couple weeks, and if you're
in one of the "reciprocal" states, you can come up with enough ciders to
set in front of people to give them a perspective. But what you end up
with is Ben Watson's problem that you're showing a spectrum of cider with
no clear focus...like a stout, a best bitter, an American pale ale, a
pilsner, and a wit.
Finally (yeah, I'm finally running down), Gary and Al...
Gary Awdey wrote:
> > It just bothers me that this is being done under
> > the name "beer" and it bothers me that this is being done to a
> > "certification" (implying that a high level of competence has been achieved)
> > rather than as a process of gradual, enjoyable and ongoing personal
> > enlightenment (Or am I alone in thinking this?).
Al Boyce (allan.boyce@usbank.com) replied:
> Many people who make beer also like to make cider and mead. The BJCP has
> recognized this, and is trying to server their membership by developing
> cider standards for use in competitions. In teaching a segment about Cider
> in the certification class, we are taking a step to give potential cider
> judges some tools with which to judge cider. Does that make them experts?
> Certainly not. Does that make them better cider judges than they would
> have been had they not had the class? One would hope...
But wait. The class you're describing is training, trying to bring people
up to speed. It's not what Gary's fussing about. The actual exam for BJCP
is a combo of written (essay questions) and testing on actual tasting...but
it covers *only* beer. As far as I can tell, a new judge could get a
perfect score without answering a single question on cider or tasting a
single cider. So back to Gary's question: where's the "certification"?
Mind you, I don't think it's bad that BJCP is focused on beer! That's
what it's about. It has become well-respected in the beer world because
it's serious and demanding. It doesn't demand anywhere near the same
understanding of cider...and I don't think it could.
The BJCP folks are obviously feeling stung by this recent round of
criticism, and there's no fun in that after they've had cider in their
rules and competitions for so long. But at the same time, there are people
who are just now encountering the BJCP material for the first time, and
thinking "What the #$%& is this?!?" And THEY are the folks who have been
making cider for years, and for a living (not just a weekend thing), and
they've scrimped and saved time/money to go to Somerset or Normandy or
Asturias. They're not stupid or ignorant, and it wasn't their job or their
expectation to find cider judging down in category 26 of some beer program.
There's going to have to be some accommodation between BJCP and
cidermakers. I hope that's where the present discussion will take us.
But, as I said, there will be some ruffled feathers along the way.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1104
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