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Cider Digest #1124
Subject: Cider Digest #1124, 29 March 2004
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Cider Digest #1124 29 March 2004
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
king apple polination ("Darlene Hanson/Darcy Wardrop")
cidre (Derek Bisset)
Keeving (Grant Family)
Jaunet ("Three Hills Farm")
Lost fruit trees of our youth ("Darlene Hanson/Darcy Wardrop")
Making French cider (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #1123, 27 March 2004 ("Benedicte Rhyne")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: king apple polination
From: "Darlene Hanson/Darcy Wardrop" <d_hanson@oberon.ark.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 12:54:43 -0800
When I bought my home 4 years a go there were 3 apple trees in place . A
Belle du Boscoop a Spartan and a King. The King is a beutiful healthy tree
but to date has produced a single apple.The previous owner stated that if
the King did not produce , cut it down as it was a lazy tree. I suspected
there was a pollination problem.I have added a Wickson , a Hidden Rose and a
Cortland and grafted on some unidentified species . The Boscoop produces
heavily, my Spartan does allright as does my neighbours. And the next
closest trees would seem to be a kilometer away.
Now yesterday I was at my local garden center and mentioned this to a woman
there. She told me that Kings like to have another King nearby. This seems
counter intuitive as they are Triploids. But she swears this is true and her
Kings are heavy bearers and this tip was handed down to her from her
Grandfathers orchard . any thoughts on this would be welcome as I would like
to see my King produce. Darcy Wardrop , Campbell River ,BC.
the trees are standards aprox 20 years old.
------------------------------
Subject: cidre
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 15:19:27 -0800
I talked to several producers in Normandy with just the question Ernst
has in mind . How do they bottle cider which still has gravity high enough
to put too much pressure on bottles if it ferments to dryness and do it
without some kind of treatment to kill the yeast .None of the producers
I talked to had a technical answer , They just did it , and it works !.
They could describe what they did in detail but there was nothing
technical or mysterious in what they said .They believed that their
process would only work with a high percentage of their special apples ,
fanatical attention to cleanliness and judgement from experience about
how many times to rack and when to bottle .
Since then I have succeeded somewhat with the process using a high
percentage of Yarlington Mill , Chisel Jersey and Dabinett , all English
cider apples with a lot of tannin . These apples allowed a brown cap
to form with no commercial yeast added . The fermentation was very slow
. The fermentation started in November lasted until July the following
year before it stopped . It was racked three times during that time , the
last time into stainless pressure kegs. At SG1020 I assumed it might go to
high pressure and dryness , but it stopped fermenting and only developed
a slight sparkle in the keg . Bottled now it is rich and full, slightly
sweet and reminiscent in flavour of the Bulmers I remember drinking in
the harvest fields in the 1950's .
I notice that other ciders I have made with a lower percentage
of cider apples have all gone very dry with lots of fizz so I think the
Normandy producers are right to suggest their process requires a high
percentage of cider apples .
------------------------------
Subject: Keeving
From: Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 11:22:07 +1000
G'day all,
Can anyone direct me to as precise a description of the keeving process as
possible? Andrew Lea's articles have helped but is there anything more
detailed? There's a lot of complete rubbish out there on the topic!
I'd love to be able to produce some medium/sweet cider by keeving, but can
realistically only get about 10 litres (~2 uk gallons, 2 1/2 us gallons) of
juice from my apples. The other problem is that I use a commercial juicer
(tedious, but good enough) and so would not be able to let the pulp undergo
cuvage before keeving it. Can anyone tell me if/how I would best
successfully keeve using this method? Does anyone have experience with
keeving on a small scale?
Cheers,
Stuart Grant.
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
------------------------------
Subject: Jaunet
From: "Three Hills Farm" <organic@threehillsfarm.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2004 22:00:39 -0500
Mark:
This is a bit of a shot in the dark, but given the lack of info that
turns up when you Google the words 'apple and Jaunet', this apple may
possibly be yet one more variation of the word Genet or Janet, as in the
cultivar Ralls Genet or Ralls Janet. That would be my guess.
Alternatively, it may also be the cider apple Genet (or Gennet) Moyle.
The only reference I could find for an apple called 'Jaunet' was on an
Australian database (
http://home.vicnet.net.au/~pcmelb/heritage/apple.html ) that provided no
information about the apple, just a mention of the name. If Jaunet
indeed IS Ralls Genet, here's an informative overview of the apple from
Tom Burford's Catalog of International Varieties:
"RALLS is frequently called Ralls Genet, Ralls Janet and Neverfail and
is also known by dozens of other names [such] as Rockremain, Rock
Rimmon, and Winter Genneting. Efforts have been made to determine the
relationship and interrelationship of the nurseryman M. Caleb Ralls,
Thomas Jefferson and Edmond Genet, known as Citizen Genet and the French
minister to the United States when Jefferson was secretary of state.
Court documents do show that M. Caleb Ralls owned and lived on 624 acres
of Tobacco Row Mountain in Amherst County, Virginia, in 1785 . . . .
Jefferson's summer home, Poplar Forest, is just across the James River
from the Ralls property and it is likely that the two would have been
acquainted. Genet's role is unclear. Beach in Apples of New York, 1905
wrote: 'First known about this variety is that trees were growing on the
farm of M. Caleb Ralls in Amherst County, Virginia, something over a
hundred years ago (Before 1850).' In the 1920s, Stark Brothers in
Missouri sold the Ralls with the name Jeniton, as well as a Giant
Jeniton. . . . Medium in size and roundish oblate in shape, the greenish
yellow skin is flushed, mottled and streaked various shades of pink, red
and crimson over one half or more of the surface. Yellow or russet and
white dots are conspicuous and scarfskin may be present on some fruit.
Sometimes, the stalk is partly covered by a fleshy protuberance in the
cavity, as it does in the Keswick Codling. Inside the basin around the
stem is usually russeted. The yellowing flesh with a greenish tinge in
dense, crisp and tender with a tart-sweet balance of flavor. When cut,
the flesh exudes a sweet aroma. The moderately vigorous trees have an
open framework and considerably twiggy growth that can be described as
brushy which makes it difficult to prune and the oval medium green
leaves are folded and reflexed and slightly waved with sharp, regular
and prominent serrations. Seeds are brown, large and ovate and the
stem is thick and can vary in length. Ralls will produce good fruit
under a low spray program even with its slight susceptibility to scab
and bitter rot. Blossom fireblight is its major disease problem, but
even though it may be severe, the set and production is not affected. In
thinning, consideration must be made that the 'June Drop' does not
affect this variety. The tree seems to have high resistance to collar
rot."
I hope this of some help.
Sincerely,
John
* * * * *
John A Gasbarre
Three Hills Farm
Union, Maine USA
organic@threehillsfarm.com
http://www.threehillsfarm.com/apples.html
44° 15' 47" N / 69° 18' 42" W
> Subject:
> From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
> Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 01:53:01 +1000
>
> Hi All,
> Just wondering if anyone can comment on a variety of cider apple called
> "Jaunet"
>
> Cheers
> MarkEinOz
------------------------------
Subject: Lost fruit trees of our youth
From: "Darlene Hanson/Darcy Wardrop" <d_hanson@oberon.ark.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 08:59:55 -0800
Randy.You know I think back to those fruit trees of our youth. That huge
Cherry tree with the 4 foot diameter trunk on your parents rental property
that we climbed all over gorging ourselves on cherries. Or the huge plum
tree in Larry Dycks back yard that had an even bigger girth and those red
plums that were best just before they were fully ripend. My mother refered
to that as her popcorn tree. I remember buried deep in the hundred year old
second growth of the trolly tracks above Brunnete river , there was one old
green apple tree that was struggling to survive . 5 years ago I went to look
for it but it had sucumbed and there was no trace of it. There were other
apples in that same forest that were part of the original homesteads. I
grafted part of one onto a tree back at Garfield St.
The one that I wish were still around was that huge crab that grew towering
over your parents garage. You know the one that produced those sweet and
tart yellow apples by the tons , and we threw at each other by the bucket
load. I went to look for it one time but it to was gone. Now that I am
making cider , I realise what a treasure was lost in that tree. It would
have been perfect having both a high sugar and high acid content, I can
still recall the flavour of them.I wonder did anyone ever mention the name
of them?
Sapperton was a treasure trove of heritage apples, most of them planted
back in the home stead days. I remember huge trees loaded with apples behind
the chinese grocery store , in Benhams yard and along Richmond near the
Elmer St lane and the huge Gravenstein that grew down behind Pacific Veneer
on Brunnete river.
Now I must content myself with exploring the extensive orchard gone wild
growing behind the town of Cumberland, I've found many apple varieties ,
pears , raspberries ,blackberries, grapes, hops and mint all growing in this
huge jungle that is slowly returning to the rainforest.
Along the banks of the Fraser River on Barnston island is the hugest Pear
tree you have ever seen. Nourished by the Fraser itself and left free to
grow on its own ,it is 4 storries high and hangs out over the water on a
muddy little beach and grassy clearng.
But I really wish I had a few cuttings from that yellow crab that grew over
your parents garage.Come by some time and I'll open a bottle of cider and we
can toast the old neighbourhood. Cheers Darcy
------------------------------
Subject: Making French cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Mar 2004 18:02:09 +0100
Ernst Grecht wrote wrote:
>
> As I read in the french explanations, some traditional french cidre is
> bottled at 1015 sg., which gives "sweet" cidre with low alcohol. I could
> get bottles (called "light champaign bottles" here in Austria) that
> withstand high pressure; but I am not sure what happens if fermentation
> goes on in the bottle. Does anyone have experience with this french kind
> of "cidre"-making ? I thought of racking the cider between 1015 and 1010
> sg. again (maybe twice or three times) and wait if fermentation really
> stops and then fill it into bottles. Might be that the bottles explode,
> when the cellar warms up during summer ?? How can french cidre be bottled
> this sweet ?
Ideally a slight fermentation will go on in the bottle, and should then
cease while excess sugar remains. This only happens if the apple juice
is low in nutrients (naturally or by 'keeving' / 'defecation'), and the
yeast is weak so it is attenuated by low nutrients and build-up of
carbon dioxide. Multiple rackings should help to remove nutrients
(although aeration by splashing will increase yeast growth, so the
racking must be gentle!)
There is always a possibility that the fermentation will continue to
completion and then you will be at risk of exploding bottles. A good
way to test this is to bottle some cider in PET (plastic) bottles with
screw caps. Keep them warm (20 C) for several weeks and inspect them
regularly. If they only develop a little gas in this time, you will
probably be safe. But if they develop a lot of gas, there may be a
risk of explosion if you bottle in glass. SG 1.010 gives you 5 bar
pressure at 20C if all the sugar ferments out. Check that your bottles
can stand this!
> There is another thing bothering me: First I wanted to do fermentation
> without artificial yeast, because the french texts tell not to add some.
Quite correct!
> Because of the cold temperatures I decided to add some yeast I had in my
> fridge, but this was yeast meant for distilling, so I wonder if this
> fermentation can be stopped at all.
>
You may have a problem here. Cultured yeasts are usually much more
vigorous than wild yeasts and so you may not be able to stop the
fermentation successfully. But it is impossible to predict what will
happen in any given case. Only experience will tell you. Work
carefully, and you will develop the experience of how your own apples
and cider perform under this system!
By the way, which French cider sites did you find which describe the
making of French cider? This group is always interested to read more
technical detail!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- --
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1123, 27 March 2004
From: "Benedicte Rhyne" <winectry@ktc.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 2004 08:58:54 -0600
Response to Ernst "how to make "sweet"cidre (french style)???
The only way you may be able to stop the fermentation, as they do in France
is by pasteurizing.
If you do not stop the fermentation, the yeast will continue their job, no
doubt...
In France they do multiple racking in real cold weather but ultimately in
order to make the yeast unable to eat the sugar, is to kill them somehow and
pasteurizing is the best way.
At Rhyne Cyder it is our most time consumming and labor intensive part of
the making.
We have develop a huge bath that we maintain at 135F and are able to make 30
cases at one time.
Depending on the size of your operation you may be able to do it on the
stove. Champagne bottles were resistant to the high temeperatures.
Good luck.
Benedicte Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1124
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