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Cider Digest #1087
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1087, 27 October 2003
Cider Digest #1087 27 October 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cracking Cox (James Cummins)
Re: Cider Digest #1086, 26 October 2003 (Steury & Noel)
More on Ferment Temps ("Larry Flynn")
Sturmers/Sturmer's Pippins (Grant Family)
More Yeast! ("Peter Robinson")
Index ("laird thompson")
Re: yeast and temp ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: the effect of heat on cider ("McGonegal, Charles")
Drip irrigation ("chris horn")
Cider from Press Clear (mdg@qwest.net)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Cracking Cox
From: James Cummins <jnc1@localnet.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:53:47 -0800
re: Tim Bray's Cracking Cox
Cracking is an unfortunate genetic attribute of Cox, but does that
really have an adverse effect on its cider potential? Here in western
New York, we expect 30 to 50% non-cracked Cox -- but the cracked residue
goes to make the best sweet cider. Tim, I think your manuring makes the
problem worse; the tree has a continuing source of nitrogen all through
the growing season. The cracking problem should lessen as the trees grow
older; don't be too hasty in reworking.
Jim Cummins, Geneva
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1086, 26 October 2003
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@potlatch.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 17:50:45 -0800
re: Cracked Cox
Do the cracks extend into the flesh? If so, you might check your soil
boron. Some varieties, including Golden Russett and Cox, are very
susceptible to boron deficiency.
Tim Steury
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
------------------------------
Subject: More on Ferment Temps
From: "Larry Flynn" <laflynn@nas.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Oct 2003 19:19:56 -0800
Fermentation is what you make it. There are beer fermenters who will discuss
the effect of a few degrees F on the flavor of beer. Beer is a wonderful
place to learn about this subject because it is not seasonal and it is
drinkable in two to six weeks from pitching the yeast so the learning is
much faster compared with making one batch every twelve months.Can't say
enuff good about having a goal for temps and working the ferment in that
direction. I think the Wyeast directions are given to ensure Commercial
success, rather than just what will work. Of basic underlying importance is
what finish is the cider maker looking for. What level of residual sugar and
ester production are desired and/or acceptable? Did you use SO2 or not?
Generally in beer and winemaking any temp below say around 65F are not going
to scrub off much flavor. The problems that can arise with the slower is
better school is that after you get down around two percent fermentable
sugars it may have alchohol /acid levels that make restarting dificult to
control, hard to start and yet the threat of in-bottle fermentation remains.
You sort of end up with sugar roulette and you are forced to accept what
happens. I think being in complete control then is of primary importance to
some fermenters and not to others.
Cheers, Larry
------------------------------
Subject: Sturmers/Sturmer's Pippins
From: Grant Family <grants@netspace.net.au>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 16:31:03 +1100
G'day,
my house was built on the site of an old orchard, and we've got some
fantastic 50-100 year old apple trees that we've always known as
"Sturmers". I've been unable to find out much about them, except that
they're also called Sturmer's Pippins, and that they're incredibly high in
Vit C (I presume this will give my cider good anti-oxidant propeties).
Does anyone know anything about Sturmers. I'm in Australia and I'm sure
they (like everything else) will be called something different in the US.
Nevertheless, any info would be great. They're a very acidic apple with
pale green/yellow skin and reddish highlights. They're occasionally
russeted, but not too much. I don't think they're particularly high in tannins.
thanks
Stuart Grant
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia.
ps. Our PM's called John Howard! Sorry, I just can't imagine THAT John
Howard picking (or eating) an apple.
------------------------------
Subject: More Yeast!
From: "Peter Robinson" <PeterR@midsussex.gov.uk>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:15:28 +0000
Hi
I'm having repeated problems over the last few years of getting my
cider to 'start'.
we ferment in 50 gallon plastic drums
add 1 campden tablet per gallon to the juice and pectic enzyme
leave for 48 hours
Pitch with 60 grams of CWE formula 67 thats been 'started' for 30
minutes plus nutrient
One week later - nothing - except a cider maker worried about losing an
awful lot of juice!
It's been chilly here in the UK lately but surely something should be
kicking off by now - any ideas?
cheers
------------------------------
Subject: Index
From: "laird thompson" <laird@joink.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:10:19 -0500
I have yet to intentionaly ferment the first thing but I hope to remedy
that soon. I have read a couple books on cider making and they were OK,
I have searched the web for information and that was helpful, but the
digest archives (I'm almost through them) have been the most educational
by far, which brings me to my question. Has anyone ever created an index
on the subjects covered over the years? This would turn the archives
into a valued reference for those having problems or just looking to try
something different.
Laird L. Thompson
Chief Probation Officer
Parke Circuit Court
116 W. High St.
Courthouse
Rockville, IN 47872
765-569-3521
Fax - 765-569-4005
------------------------------
Subject: Re: yeast and temp
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:23:11 -0600
Travis Dahl writes :
>I might hazard a guess that the fermentation temperatures used by cider
>makers has more to do with what the temp is like wherever they have their
>fermenters than what will get the maximum use out of the yeast. Can
>anybody corroborate/refute this?
I think that Andrew's comments in the same CD strongly suggests that people
strongly favor what they happen to get anyway, due to their
climate/geography/indigenous flora/budget & technology, etc.
I begun to avoid telling people what temperature I ferment at. It doesn't
mean anything to people who aren't in the know - and tends to shock cider
makers - but not white wine folks.
I'm sure it matters to some degree - but there's more going on than just
temperature.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: the effect of heat on cider
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:47:33 -0600
Larry,
I left a bottle of my cider (an off-dry, 8% alcohol, methode champenois
style) in the trunk of my black Grand Am for the months of July and August
(in Chicago, in an open parking lot during weekdays) this year, just to see
what would happen.
The bottle stayed intact, no deposit formed, and it kept full sparkle. The
flavor took a pretty big hit - but it didn't turn 'rank'. The bouquet got
knocked down, and the fruitiness seemed little 'brown' and the malic acid
tartness was more pronounced. Actually very similar to what some of my
basement batches do around 7 years old.
On the other hand, it's my understanding that imported country ciders are
incredibly sensitive to temperature history. An aspect of having the yeast
and other flora still in the bottle, I think. In our area, we often find
that they have become what my wife, drawing on her spice industry
experience, calls 'barfy', 'raunchy', and 'sweat socks'. These are all
legitimate flavor notes that add to the complexity of a cider - in _small_
amounts.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Drip irrigation
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 08:46:58 -0800
I am in the process of grafting up and putting in an orchard over the next
several years. It's going to be a mixed bag of cider and dessert apples
with eating and perry pears. Rootstocks are mostly m-9, m-26, OhxF 333 and
OhxF 40. Soil is wonderful, historic flood plain but now elevated above the
river.
The commercial nursery across the road from me has been nice enough to let
me order what I want from their whole saler in terms of parts for a drip
irrigation system. I am wondering about the flow rates that I should be
getting for the feed lines. The nursery guy seems worried about the flow
rates of the drippers but doesn't want to guess on apples. Does it really
matter if I get a ? gallon per hour one and run it for four hours or if I
get a ? gallon per hour one and run it for 8 hours? Any info on feed rates
would be wonderful.
Thanks
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
'The future ain't what it used to be'
-Yogi Berra
------------------------------
Subject: Cider from Press Clear
From: mdg@qwest.net
Date: Mon, 27 Oct 2003 09:58:46 -0700
I suppose every year at this time someone new to apple squeezing asks this one.
On Saturday when I pressed apples, the resulting liquid was far lighter
than it had been. Same apples. There had been a good frost though. The
cider did begin to turn darker as it sat in the bottle. It tasted fine,
perhaps a bit sweeter than usual. If there is conventional wisdom out
there, my 10 year old son and I would like to know it. We kept dumping
the initial drippings thinking it was water from the apples we had
cleaned. Duh.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1087
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