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Cider Digest #1055
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Subject: Cider Digest #1055, 14 July 2003
Cider Digest #1055 14 July 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
More thoughts on thinning ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Thinning and pressing (Claude Jolicoeur)
Thinning (Derek Bisset)
Post bottling fermentation (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: More thoughts on thinning
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Wed, 9 Jul 2003 22:16:52 -0700
As Claude suggested bigger in not necessarily better with cider apples, so
thin for the health of the tree rather than the size of the fruit. Typically
we hand thin to two/three apples per cluster on those varieties which are
not prone to biennialism. On the biennial varieties we do the same and
completely remove alternate clusters as Ian suggests. However to date this
task does not seem to be worth the effort particularly with Browns and
Porters. They either crop or are barren and unfortunately they all seem to
be on the same cycle so we are left with either a good crop of sharp apples
or virtually nothing. My question is, given the strong biennial nature of
these varieties could you reverse the trend by completely removing the bloom
on a "on year" so the tree would bear the following? The strategy being to
get half the trees to bear each year. A half crop would be better than
nothing, and make thinning less of an effort when a tree is "on". Has anyone
tried this?
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Subject: Thinning and pressing
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2003 23:31:13 -0400
In CD 1054, it was said...
>Subject: About thinning apples...
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
>But Claude Jolicoeur pointed out:
>>For making cider, I think there is no point growing big apples, as those
>>contain more water and less goodies in proportion. A nice crop of small
>>apples usually give me a juice with a lot more sugars, acids and aromas,
>>eventually leading to a better quality cider. So I would suggest not to
>>thin too much - just enough to prevent alternance.
>
>And that leads to my question: How much would that be? The textbooks are
>little help, as they are mainly aimed at producing big fruit for
>market. Prof. Merwin suggests that for some varieties, thinning will still
>not prevent biennialism (alternance), so it would seem to be waste of
>effort and fruit.
I would tend to agree with Prof. Merwin. In fact, when I wrote that one
should thin just enough to prevent alternance, I meant "Ideally, this is
what we should do". But personnally, I don't do any thinning because I
think it is too time comsuming and it doesn't help much with varieties with
strong alternance tendency. I rather try to control alternance with
pruning, but this doesn't work very well either. And, as we all do cider,
we don't have to produce market quality apples - the small percentage of
perfect apples can be put aside for consumption and the rest go to the press.
>So is biennial bearing a characteristic of the
>variety, unaffected by thinning, or can thinning really force a tree to
>yield reliably every year?
I think on some varieties, thinning can help (and pruning also) to regulate
the production, but on some other varieties, nothing will.
>Subject: Re: priming
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
>I'm with Dick - ciders are generally better with less carbonation. The
>great Norman ciders are barely sparkling ("petillant").
I have a question here - what do you think of true Champagne? Would you say
the sparkling hides defects? It is true that a "cidre plat" can be
excellent, but a naturally sparkling "cidre bouche sec" is more festive. A
bad cidre will be bad, sparkling or not. I think both have their place,
just as white wine and Champagne also have their place.
>Now, about temperature: Should cider be served chilled, or just cooled
>like Real Ale, or at room temperature?
A good cidre should taste good, wether it is cool, cold or hot... On a hot
summer day, I prefer it cold, but during a cold winter evening...
>Subject: Re: juice extractor advice
>From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
>On the other side, Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca> responded to
>Diane Gagnon's question:
>
>>...I have made tests with a centrifugal juice extractor and found the
>> juice to be of lesser quality than pressed juice...
>
>Claude, tell us more please. In what way did you find quality lacking?
Well, I must admit that, obviously, we are not talking about the same type
of extractor. The one I tried is one of those 30$ extractor that you can
use to make juice from carrots, turnips, cucumbers, etc... What I didn't
like with the apple juice is that there were a lot of particles mixed with
the juice (a bit like "orange juice with pulp"). Also, there was a lot of
foam on top of the juice. I didn't like it. Another problem was that this
lack of homogeneity made it difficult to test the density and the acidity.
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: Thinning
From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@shaw.ca>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 11:38:29 -0700
The Normandy cider apple producers still maintain a research station at
Sees . They were still doing research and producing annual reports a few
years ago although I haven't found out what they are doing recently .
They did several years research on chemical thinning reported on in
1994 . The work was done on local varieties such as Petit Jaune , Douce
Coetligne etc . They were specifically concerned with biennial bearing
They reported disappointing results with chemical thinning in their report
. Their comments in conversation suggested that biennialism is inevitable
with the varieties prone to it , becoming more pronounced as the trees age
and apparently determined by local growing conditions . They were
recommending that experiments to control it end , being fruitless so to speak.
My own experience is that there are big difference in varieties and
it would be best to concentrate on the ones that show the tendency least .
I have Muscadet de Dieppe going from a heavy load one year to no
apples at all next while Yarlington Mill seems to give a consistent crop
each year . I think it will take years of local observations to make
recommendations on varieties . Being a fourth or fifth generation cider
maker would have its advantages .
------------------------------
Subject: Post bottling fermentation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2003 19:42:52 +0100
David asked
> Also, can you please tell me whether I am correct in believing that
> induciing a post-bottling fermentation (even without removal of the yeast
> deposit) greatly improves the keeping quality of the cider? I find with my
> cider that it ages/deteriorates very slowly (good for up to 2 years or more
> after bottling).
Well I for one would agree. A 'naturally conditioned' glass-bottled
crown-capped cider (with a little of its own yeast necessarily present)
lasts at least 2 -3 years in my experience. During that time the flavour
may change and will even improve quite a bit due to the continuing
biochemistry, remaining a very drinkable proposition. Eventually
autolysis and a certain 'tiredness' sets in!
The judgement rather depends what your 'control' is, of course.
Evidently a cider which is bottle conditioned in glass will be fine for
years. If in PET it will still tend to oxidise fairly quickly because
oxygen can permeate the plastic, so its lifetime is only a few months.
If in a barrel of course it can go seriously acetic in just a few weeks.
The control which I've never done as a true paired comparison is in
pasteurised bottle (preferably with SO2) to compare with bottle
conditioned. Under such circumstances the cider cannot 'mature' but it
will certainly remain good and stable for a year or more.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- ----------------------------------
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End of Cider Digest #1055
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