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Cider Digest #1029
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1029, 17 March 2003
Cider Digest #1029 17 March 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Closures - Barstop ("Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com")
Re: Interesting Perry crush day / Pear choices ("Mark Ellis - Artisansrus....)
Re: Interesting Perry crush day / Pear choices ("Mark Ellis - Artisansrus....)
The "Best" Cider Varieties ("Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com")
New Traditional (Thomas Beckett)
RE: Cider Digest #1028, 15 March 2003 ("Vintage Virginia Apples LLC")
RE: Taliaferro ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: Cider Digest #1028, 15 March 2003 (LoneRoc@aol.com)
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Subject: Closures - Barstop
From: "Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:10:57 +1100
G'day All,
I am mucking about going through various closure options for my "still"
ciders and perrys and meads which I want to bottle in wine bottles and the
like. I am looking for ease of extraction as well as pleasing appearance
and was curious whether anyone uses the barstop corks (commonly seen in
ports and muscats)?
They are the ones which are sort of half length cork with a poly top.
Mainly, my main concern is if they provide a good 100% seal under a heat
shrink capsule. I don't want to invite oxidation.
I have a pic here of them if they are known by other names in different
countries http://www.cospak.com.au/productdetails.asp?ProductID=10500
Interested in all opinions...strewth now I am in trouble... ;-)
Catcha
Mark E. in OZ
<<<<<<<< http://www.Artisansrus.com >>>>>>
Ancient Fermentable Arts Discussion Groups
inc. cheese, wine, beer, cider, mead and more....
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Interesting Perry crush day / Pear choices
From: "Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:37:24 +1100
G'day Ross and All!,
Well apparently I :-
Mark E. spake thus:
>Had a interesting day crushing 2 different fruit types.
>
>Batch 1 was a blend of our own seedling perry pears from 10 different
>trees. Interesting bunch to say the least. [snip]
And Ross asked } May I ask, what variety/ies of pears are you growing for
your perries?
Ross, I have absolutely no idea. We are pretty sure most are from suckers
from our 90 year old Winter Cole pear trees, BUT I am of the belief that
quite a few of these are seedlings. The trouble with pears is that they are
sometimes difficult to detect where the roots are originating from,
particularly in a flood irrigated orchard where suckers will pop up 30-40
feet from the mother tree!
I figured most were suckers except apart from 2 out of 12 or more trees had
physical and fruit differences that were too different to make that
argument stay!!
They all give excellent bitter sharp or bitter sweet juice - all this year
consistently around the 1.054SG and I am really stoked with these. I MUST
buy my pH meter very very soon. Too many unrecorded variable!!!
With regard to the dessert pear choices, I say use 'em all - but ferment
separately and blend too taste. Due to the low acid / tannin combination of
the dessert varieties there will not be a great amount of zippadeedoodaa
but they may still nevertheless provide a pleasing drink, especially if you
reserve a little juice to freeze for later, to prime some bottles under
crowns for a lovely sparkling perry. Bubbles can go a loooong way to hiding
blandness in a perry and cider.
Cheers to all - as I sip on a lovely smidge of sparkling Lady Williams
cider...tasty...
Catcha
Mark E. in OZ
<<<<<<<< http://www.Artisansrus.com >>>>>>
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------------------------------
Subject: Re: Interesting Perry crush day / Pear choices
From: "Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 15:44:38 +1100
G'day Charles,
Well I will be trailing some Bartlett (over here they are called Williams)
and Winter Cole, so we will see how they perform this season. Flavour and
sweetness is excellent this year as we are in a drought period, and have
irrigated 3 times only this season which really concentrated the fruit
quality, much like it does to grapes.
As far a pressing goes, it tend to grind to the "frozen slushy" stage so it
presses will a better yield than does apples. Seems the graininess nature
of pears lends itself to finer crushing than apples.
I will report back some findings when they come to hand.
Cheers for now
Mark E. in OZ
<<<<<<<< http://www.Artisansrus.com >>>>>>
Ancient Fermentable Arts Discussion Groups
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*********************
I've used Bartlett for perry before. I think it works nicely in a more
fruity/floral style. I find the ones we get here in Chicago to be a bit
low
in sugar.
A couple of notes:
1) Pears are reputed to be hard to press. I haven't had trouble, but I
grind them when they are still a bit hard.
2) My perry with Bartlett turned purple. Kind of a light lavender. No
kidding. I read a paper a few years ago, maybe out of WSU, that noted the
same pigment instability.
I haven't tried to ferment asian pears. They all taste like a grape 'jolly
rancher' to me, and I thought it would be a bit overpowering in a wine.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
*********************
------------------------------
Subject: The "Best" Cider Varieties
From: "Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 16:20:43 +1100
G'day Again - on a bit of a roll!!
Big congrats to Dick for showing us how to see the forest despite the apple
trees!
The best cider varieties thereby producing the best cider is such a source
of debate!
As has been seen recently on the UKcider list, there is a lot of talk about
how to represent the best and most authenticated product.
I guess, when all is said and done, you need to work out whether you are
producing your cider to replicate a recognised style eg. Kent, West
Country, Normandy blah...
OR
You are hell bent on imprinting your own regional identity and following
that up as a possible marketing (for the commercial types) strategy). Not
all cider needs to be high tannic bitter sweet west country style still
cider to be qualified as the only real thing and the rest is for the
commoners...
What is popular? Why is it popular, even among your mates? Do you have a
tradition of apple "beverages"? What earmarks it as eg US/Uk/Aussie/French
etc?
I say, research (even just for the fun of it) your locals and experiment
with all sorts of blend and production techniques until you find you are
getting somewhere as a cider identity that is representative of who and
what your region represents. All very lofty ideals I know, but think of the
compounding implications of all possible outcomes.
Even here in Oz, my creative juices are piqued, mainly as we have a cider &
perry heritage that arrived with the First Fleet and has seemingly
evaporated over that passage of only 200+ years. So what does it mean to us
as locals. Well I better get out there and find out. Nothing stays the same
for a reason, so I encourage you all to seek out your regions "Real" cider
and perry identity.
Phew....
Mark E. in OZ
<<<<<<<< http://www.Artisansrus.com >>>>>>
Ancient Fermentable Arts Discussion Groups
inc. cheese, wine, beer, cider, mead and more....
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
Subject: New Traditional
From: Thomas Beckett <thomas@tbeckett.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 01:24:16 -0500
It was gratifying to read the flurry of posts in response to
Charlotte's and Andrew's call for an appreciation of American apple
varieties for cider. It seems to have struck a chord among many. I
like Dick Dunn's coinage of "new tradition" to describe this concept.
And I think that "New Tradition" concept could rightly describe a
"movement" in cider making, one that I aim to be a part of.
Let us start the New Traditional Cider movement right here and now. We
can discuss and elucidate the outlines of the New Tradition in these
pages. It could be a very worthwhile undertaking.
I am but a newcomer to cider-making, but cider has truly captured my
imagination and my palate. I look to learn from the veterans among this
group in the months and years to come. What I presently lack in
experience I could perhaps make up for with impertinent questions.
Many thanks to all for allowing me to participate in this special
community.
Thomas Beckett
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1028, 15 March 2003
From: "Vintage Virginia Apples LLC" <fruit@vintagevirginiaapples.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:43:12 -0500
The tree Frank Browning referred to may be the lost Taliaferro, but it is
only one candidate and given the paucity of information in the extant
literature, it may never be positively identified.
We have several trees that should have fruit this year...we had a couple
last year, but not enough to press. Whether it is the Taliaferro that
Jefferson grew, I doubt we will ever know, but it does apparently have the
merit for cider that Frank rhapsodizes about. We also have another Burford
discovery which we are calling Nelson Crab (for the county where he found
it) which has yet to fruit for us that he thinks is another candidate...and
the search can go on...
The Taliaferro ( pronounced Toliver) was a southern apple, originating in
Virginia's Gloucester county. Peter Hatch in his excellent and scholarly
The Fruits and Fruit Trees of Monticello, 1998, p.75,gives as good a history
or the Taliaferro as we have in print, notes that in spite of Jefferson's
commendation as "the best cyder apple existing,"..producing cider "more like
wine than any other liquor I have tasted which was not wine," the Taliaferro
was ignored by national pomological writers.
So, inconclusive, elusive, but this is the best information I can offer.
Hope it helps and perhaps extends the search...it was also called Robinson
or Robinson's White or Robertson. Major Richard Taliaferro found the apple
growing in a field near Williamsburg owned by a Mr. Robertson. Jefferson
received his wood from Taliaferro....
Charlotte Shelton
Vintage Virginia Apples LLC
P. O. Box 210
North Garden, Virginia 22959
www.vintagevirginiaapples.com
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Taliaferro
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 08:15:08 -0600
Like you, I was very curious about the reports in Browning's book.
Here is the answer I got from the Plant Curator at Monticello:
> Dear Charles,
>
> Any so called Taliaferro would be impossible to verify because of the
> vagueness of the early 19th century descriptions: "The Fruit is the size of
> a grape shot, or from one to two inches in diameter; of a white color,
> streaked with red; with a sprightly acid, not good for the table, but
> apparently a very valuable cider fruit. This is understood to be a Virginia
> fruit, and the apple from which Mr. Jefferson's favorite cider was made."
> (Kenrick, 1845) We've had people claim they have the Taliaferro, but unless
> a better description appears, we'll never know.
>
> Thanks, Peter Hatch
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1028, 15 March 2003
From: LoneRoc@aol.com
Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2003 10:50:29 -0500
Mr. Beckett:
Orchard Lane Nursery in Virginia
sells material discovered by Mr. Burford.
They offer two or possibly three apples that
are similar to the vague description of
Tolliver (as it's pronounced). I purchased
grafts of the same, including the West Virginia
tree mentioned by Browning from there a year or
so ago. I had them custom grafted on a hardy
root stock for testing in my cold zone 3 climate.
I was please by the quality of the trees offered.
Rollin Woolley, the owner, also offered me scion wood
but I preferred to have him do the work. I am
not sure if he offers scion wood to all comers,
but i had made contact with him and Tom Burford
at the Charlottesville, Virginia NAFEX meting two
years ago. Incidentally, Frank Browning was there, too.
I do not have Orchard Lane's address with me at
the moment, but if you e-mail me off-list at
loneroc@mwt.net I'll get it to you.
Sincerely,
Steve Herje, Lone Rock, WI USDA zone 3
PS. Orchard Lane also offers other traditional
American Cider cultivars such as Graniwinkle and
Harrison.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1029
*************************
