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Cider Digest #1058
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1058, 25 July 2003
Cider Digest #1058 25 July 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Perry (Mike S)
Oak aged Cider (Cameron Adams)
Biennial bearing (Andrew Lea)
Root stock growth ("chris horn")
Question for our administrator (Jason MacArthur)
Defining "real cider" (Benjamin Watson)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Perry
From: Mike S <mshim01@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 10:48:38 -0700 (PDT)
Hi,
The house I moved into over the winter has a pear tree that is loaded with
pears. I've made cider from juice, but never directly from apples.
A friend has offered to lend me his wine press for juicing the pears. Will
this work? The expensive cider presses I've seen all crush the fruit before
pressing them. Is that really necessary?
I thought about chopping the pears up with a knife or running them through a
food processor. Both ways seem like a lot of work, and I'm sure I'd go through
a food processor or two in the process.
Any suggestions other than shelling out the money for a real cider press.
Thanks.
Mike
------------------------------
Subject: Oak aged Cider
From: Cameron Adams <cadams@arczip.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 15:16:35 -0400
I would like to tap the experience of the members of this list to offer
some suggestions for "aging" cider in oak. I am a small scale producer
(5 gallons at a time) who uses carbouys (aka homebrewer) to ferment my
cider. I have purchased oak chips from a winemaking and homebrewing
shop to add to my next batch to get a little more depth of flavor.
However, I havn't a clue regarding the use of these chips. How much do
I use? When do I put them in? When do I take them out?
Also any other hints about their use, including successes, pitfalls,
flavour combinations, etc., would be well appreciated.
Cheers to you all,
Cam
------------------------------
Subject: Biennial bearing
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 20:26:52 +0100
Certainly here in the UK biennialism (alternance if you prefer) is a
perennial problem. As others have said, some cultivars are much worse
than others (with me, Dabinett is not so prone) and physical or chemical
thinning is only partly successful. Work over many years at Long Ashton
only partly got on top of the issue. As an amateur I just grin and bear
it. So my yields are 1000 kg in an 'on' year and only 100 kg in an
'off' year!
It would be nice to think the trees synchronise their bearing by
subliminal communication (like some group-dwelling female mammals do!).
Sadly there is no evidence for this. Although it is certainly known
that trees do 'communicate' in the vapour phase with each other, sending
chemical messages through the air to switch on insect defences for
instance, biennialism seems to be set much more simply by weather
patterns. Once the cycle is established it is very difficult to break
because it becomes hormonally self-reinforcing in each individual as I
think Ian Merwin explained. But the kinder the climate, and the longer
and warmer the growing season, the less of a problem it becomes.
As a result, for the UK cider apple crop over the country as a whole,
there is a marked biennial tendency, even though the trees are growing
hundreds of miles apart. In the past this was the very scourge for
cider production - now it can be compensated to some extent, by turning
the surplus juice into concentrate for use in the 'off' year. Such a
solution is only realistic for a large company though, who can buy or
rent evaporator capacity.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Root stock growth
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 13:18:29 -0700
I had a some pear root stock left over last year (March of 2002) that I
didn't graft. I planted it in buckets and watered it last year. I then
grafted it this past winter. The grafts have gone mad. I have +25" of
growth out of some of them so far. The ones that I grafted up last year
(same batch of root stock, OHxF 333 for perry) are doing well but not nearly
as big. Has any one compared growing root stock for a year then grafting vs.
grafting and waiting a year? It would make sense that the harvesting of the
root stock and then the grafting is tramatic on the plant. If you spread it
out over two years do you get better results? Do most folks in here graft
up their own trees? I think that I may be in the minority.....
Thanks
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon USA
'The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese'
------------------------------
Subject: Question for our administrator
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 06:30:08 -0400
I often wonder just who we are here on the cider list: where do we
live, how much cider do we press, how many grow their own fruit, in
general what sort of profile we have as a group. I thought that
everyone could send in a brief message describing themselves, but it
occurred to me that this heavy traffic might be a hassle for you. If
so, I would be willing to take messages off list and compile a profile
of our intrepid ciderers. Do you have any thoughts on this?
------------------------------
Subject: Defining "real cider"
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 18:08:16 -0400
For the past few years, I have seen several attempts on the Cider
Digest and in the UK Cider e-group to try and define what we mean by
"real cider" or "artisan cider," and I would like to raise the issue
again because I would like everyone's input.
This week Slow Food USA has asked me to help assemble a list of
artisanal cider producers to induct into the American Ark of Taste
under that category. I have some ideas of which cideries should be
listed (though I'm also open to suggestions), but chiefly I would like
to come up with some production criteria for what does (and does not)
constitute traditional, artisanal, real, [fill in your own adjective]
cider.
Some of the thoughts and questions I had were, as follows:
1. The cider must be made with 100% fresh-pressed, non-pasteurized
apple juice. There would be no specially permitted or excluded apple
varieties. But I wonder if we should broaden the definition to include
some fraction -- certainly 50% or less of pear juice or some other
fresh fruit juice.
2. As a practical matter, the usual adjuncts and fermentation aids
would be allowed: cultured yeast strains, sulfites, yeast nutrient,
etc. But what about diluting with water, or adding grape tannin or
malolactic culture during fermentation? And what about sugar -- any and
all allowed as an adjunct? Include or exclude honey? Raisins? Fresh
fruits at the beginning of fermentation, such as raspberries?
Certainly, no artificial ingredients or flavorings (including
back-sweetening with saccharin) should be permitted.
3. Mechanical methods such as microfiltration or keeving (defecation)
through chemicals should probably be allowed, as should priming and
degorgement (methode champenoise/traditionalle). But what about
in-bottle pasteurization?
4. Force carbonation would probably be permitted, again as a practical
matter and because it doesn't greatly affect the quality of the cider.
But should there be any limit to how much should be allowed?
5. Single variety (varietal) ciders that are advertised as such must
contain at least 50% per volume of that kind of varietal juice.
6. Alcohol by volume could be anywhere between 2% and 9% abv. This
would exclude highly chaptalized "apple wines" from the category.
7. Apples should be either grown by the cidermaker, or sourced from
other local or regional orchardists.
8. Should there be some production limit to the category of "artisan
cider"? In other words, would it be theoretically possible for someone
to produce 50,000 gallons of "real" cider, using traditional methods?
How about 100,000 gallons? When, if ever, does a traditional process
become "industrial" in scale?
9. Should there be any mention of fermentation vessels? My own feeling
is that one can produce very good cider in oak, stainless, poly, or
glass fermenters.
There may well be more criteria that I'm missing. The point is not to
be so broad as to make the definition meaningless, but not so
restrictive as to ignore the legitimate and traditional production
methods and be so pure and inflexible as to preclude most good
commercial cidermakers.
I know that I'm opening a can of worms with this question, but I would
appreciate any input or opinions that others have before I make my
recommendations to Slow Food USA. This Ark designation will be another
means for us to promote good cider to the American public, and give it
more visibility, just as they are doing with raw-milk cheeses and other
products.
Thanks to everyone for your serious and considered opinions on this
digest, and to Dick Dunn for managing it. I always find interesting
discourse here, and it helps me greatly in my thinking.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
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End of Cider Digest #1058
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