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Cider Digest #1033
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1033, 5 April 2003
Cider Digest #1033 5 April 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1032, 1 April 2003 (j/kbooth)
Old trees/new trees ("Victor Fluke")
CD 1031 > the term 'vintage' ("McGonegal, Charles")
Budagowsky 118 ("Sgroppino Farms")
Old trees / new trees (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1032, 1 April 2003
From: j/kbooth <jameshbooth@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 07:54:35 -0500
My curiousity overcomes my retinance to expose my
ignorance in asking a stupid question. I know
virtually nothing of growing apples but in the
question of "growing" vs "mature" trees, as to
apple quality, don't even mature trees grow new
wood for branches and need
to be trimmed of wood over most of their life?
If so, what is different regarding growing wood
impact on apple quality as to the wood being
established as branches and that added when the
trunk is gaining significant girth?
jbooth
------------------------------
Subject: Old trees/new trees
From: "Victor Fluke" <vwf80@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 02 Apr 2003 11:25:09 -0500
The question was asked whether cider made from older trees is superior to
that made from younger trees. The subject of the amount of nitrogen and
calcium used by the young tree and its effect on the quality of the fruit
and cider was brought up. My question is: does the age of the tree affect
the amount of tannins in the fruit and the cider which is made? Studies
have shown that grapes of young vines are lower in tannins. The older the
vine, the more tannins "reserves" the vine has built up. This results in
more tannic grapes and a longer ageing more well-rounded wine. Maybe the
same tannin situation occurs in apple trees, which is why some makers shun
younger trees and fruit from "bush" trees. I don't know if this helps anyone
since I don't have any proof from studies at hand right now. Just some
ideas.
Victor Fluke
vwf80@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Subject: CD 1031 > the term 'vintage'
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Apr 2003 13:41:12 -0600
Oooh, semantics. My favorite.
Given that 'vintage' has gotten a single-varietal slant in several recent,
popular and widespread books, it may be impossible to return to an earlier
meaning.
In current French apple lingo, there is the idea of 'pommes completes' for
single-varietal cidre. That speaks to the observation that Dick quotes -
that a 'balanced' apple (sugar, acid, tannins) may still not be 'complete'
and be able to make a noteworthy cider by itself.
That said, may be we can (successfully) encourage a new use, rather than
trying to reclaim an older one. Perhaps a better use of 'vintage' would be
in conjuction with a clarifying 'type' word, like:
vintage varietal (a 'complete' apple)
vintage blender (contributes special character, but is not 'balanced')
Perhaps part of the problem lies in the original appropriation of the term
'vintage' and applying it to the fruit instead of the resulting cider. I
think wine makers would say that certain varieties, well grown in good
climates could make a _cider_ worthy of a 'vintage' designation in certain
years, hence tying 'vintage' to given years. Some special varieties might
make it on their own ('complete'), other as part of blends ('vintage' - old
sense), or even specific blends. But it's still the end product, the cider,
that's 'vintage' - not the fruit that went into it.
Thinking of special blends that can be worthy of being called 'vintage', in
grapes, isn't that what a 'meritage' is? Or in apple, a 'pommage'. So maybe
there are 'meritage' apples. The famed Graniwinkle / Harrison combination
comes to mind.
That doesn't really help when refering to older texts, though - the reader
'just' has to know how the author is using 'vintage'. (oh, sure - 'just'. A
trivial exercise, I'm sure :-)
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Budagowsky 118
From: "Sgroppino Farms" <sgroppino@sgroppino.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Apr 2003 00:31:21 -0500
I'm in the process of grafting a bunch of trees for 2004 and am trying
out Bud 118 for the first time. I don't hear many people discussing
this rootstock, yet what little I've heard about it has been quite
positive---especially for rough Northern winters. Is there anyone on
the list who'd be willing to share their experiences with Bud 118? I'm
curious to hear what the downsides to it may be, aside from the
unwieldly size of the trees it can produce. Which apple cultivars are
the best candidates for grafting onto the more 'standard' sized
rootstocks like Bud 118 and Antanovka? Which should be avoided?
Any/all feedback greatly appreciated.
John
* * * * *
John A Gasbarre
Sgroppino Farms
Vinalhaven Island, Maine
sgroppino@sgroppino.com
USDA Zone 5
------------------------------
Subject: Old trees / new trees
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 04 Apr 2003 19:55:51 +0100
TB wrote a very nice essay on this in the last Digest. And I agree with
it all except the following:
> And I do not believe in the idea
> of running sheep through the mature orchard to 'remove the nitrogen in the
> groundcover.' Sheep poop, and that provides a very ready source not only
> of nitrogen, but also e. coli and other such critters.
>
First of all, running sheep or cattle in cider orchards is absolutely
traditional in NW European cider areas eg Somerset, Devon, Hereford and
Normandy. Only in the last 40 years, with the advent of bush trees, has
it become less common. But now that more standard trees are being
planted again, it's back in fashion. Secondly, it _does_ remove
nitrogen. The animals go in thin (spring) and they come out fat (autumn)
just before harvest! That growth comes from soil / grass nitrogen
building up into animal protein. Yes of course the beasts do excrete
some soluble nitrogen which is recycled, but as they grow they
incorporate much of it into their own body mass. Net result at the end
of the season is a loss in total orchard nitrogen (not allowing for the
action of soil nitrogen-fixing bacteria which are of course continuously
plucking more out of the air!).
One thing which is _not_ removed is potassium, since it's excreted in
the urine and not significantly incoporated into body mass. As Terence
will know, lack of potassium can cause severe leaf scorching and even
defoliation. And here's a tale...Back in the 1970's, when cider bush
orcharding was new, an accountant for a major UK cider company decided
that the grass between the trees was a useless and wasted asset. He knew
that running stock in traditional orchards was commonplace, but this
could not be done with bush trees since the animals would strip the
trees. So instead of taking the beef to the orchard he decided to take
the orchard to the beef - that is, he set up a beef-fattening unit
supplied by the 'useless' grass which was mown and removed on a weekly
basis. His orcharding managers advised against it but of course the
bean-counter knew better because his slide-rule told him so (this was
before the days of spreadsheets, remember!).
Two seasons later the trees had severe leaf scorch and the Dabinett (a
potassium sensitive cultivar) had dropped all its leaves by mid-summer.
I saw them and they were a truly sorry sight. It set that young orchard
back by several years and probably cost more in terms of lost revenue
and remedial fertiliser treatment than had ever been gained by the
profits from the beef! That was simply due to a lack of potassium
recycling. Of course it could have been remedied by extra potassium
applied at the time the grass was being cut and removed ..but hindsight
is always 20/20!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- - ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
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End of Cider Digest #1033
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