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Cider Digest #1026
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1026, 5 March 2003
Cider Digest #1026 5 March 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Scab management, and a little on pH/sulfites (Terence L Bradshaw)
RE: Harrison Apple ("Vintage Virginia Apples LLC")
Re: Cider Apple: Harrison (Marc Montefusco)
Sulphites and pH (Andrew Lea)
'Keeving' in the OED (Andrew Lea)
Re: competitions ("T. J. Higgins")
Re: Cider Trees (Terence Bradshaw)
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Subject: Scab management, and a little on pH/sulfites
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Sat, 01 Mar 2003 08:59:41 -0500
At 11:34 PM 2/28/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>From: "Jason MacArthur" <jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com>
>Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:10:52 -0500
>
> I am planting a small orchard of cider apples this year, here in humid
>New England. Two of the varieties I am planting are described by the
>nursery as "moderately scab susceptible." As I research scab management I
>come across a great deal of conflicting information, from 'Raking and
>burning leaves in the fall will be adequate to control scab on a small
>scale' to 'Not spraying regularly for scab from the beginning of the
>season until mid-June will cripple your trees and leave you with horrible
>tasting cider." I am curious what other growers/ciderists have found,
>particularly back yard growers in the northeast. What am I getting myself
>into?
I write this as someone who has managed commercial orchards in the past and
presently manages and conducts research at the University of Vermont Hort
Research Center. I am also planting my first home orchard this
spring. That said, and trying not to go too far into non-cider-speak, I'll
offer my opinions.
First, read up on scab biology. The New England Apple Pest Management
Guide, due for a new version soon, is a great start:
http://pmo.umext.maine.edu/apple/PestGuidePDF/2000-2001NEAPMGdirectory.htm
. Then step back and realize that you are growing coder fruit in your
backyard and a) are not concerned about a commercial crop and b) do not
want to be blasting fungicides willy-nilly. Clean up the orchard as best
as you can: rake leaves and burn/compist, spread compst on the ground
afterwards to smother and help break down remaining leaves. Sprinkle lime
or wood ash on the ground each spring...in New England it's generally a
good idea anyway and it will also help to break the leaves and spores down.
Prune your trees to allow for good light and air penetration. If you choose
to spray, use something relatively safe like a sulfur product, but not just
any sulfur. Most are junk, and wash off with each rain or even dew. In my
semi-organic block I use a product called THAT Sulfur from Stoller, Inc.
(http://www.keylate.com) applied at 6 pints per 150 gallons of water. This
would equate to 0.64 fl. oz. per gallon when applied in a backpack
sprayer. Generally a semi-dwarf tree at a height of ten feet will require
about a half-gallon of water to spray to wetness. The most important times
to spray for scab management are from green tip until a couple of weeks
past petal fall, and this material will hold for about a week between
applications unless an inch or more of rain occurs.
> My other question refers to the realtionship between pH and added
>sulfites. I understand that the amount of sulfites needed to control the
>major cider problems decreases as pH decreases, but do those extra sulfites
>at lower pH's become merely redundant or do they increase in efficacy,
>killing a greater and greater variety of organisms present in cider? I am
>wondering because none of my ciders seem to be undergoing a malolactic
>fermentation. Not knowing the pH I added sulfites to the tune of 75ppm at
>the start of fermentation and none at bottling time. Although I still don't
>know the pH I now know that the ciders are very acidic (around .08% total
>acidity expressed as malic acid) and I am wondering if there is any chance
>that the beasties who would perform a malolactic fermentation are still
>alive. Any thoughts on this?
Back to cider-speak. MLF can be really tricky to achieve, and I'm no
microbiologist but I don't think 75 ppm of sulfite is an awful lot. The
scale in Proulx and Nichols' book ranges from 50-200 ppm depending on
pH. You may want to try one of the MLF cultures available from brewshops.
All for now,
TerryB
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
madshaw@innevi.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Harrison Apple
From: "Vintage Virginia Apples LLC" <fruit@vintagevirginiaapples.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 09:33:15 -0500
Dear John,
My description of Harrison is largely from A. J. Downing, The Fruit and
Fruit Trees of America, New York, 1846. The source of Harrison today is
probably similar....the third edition of Fruit, Berry and Nut Inventory
lists two sources, Lee Elliott and Rollin Wooley's Orchard Lane Nursery from
which I got it...I think Rollin got it and Mr.. Elliott may have as well,
from Tom Burford who found it some few years ago growing in New Jersey
(this from him in conversation)....He did fruit it and described it as a dry
fleshed apple that produced an inordinate amount of juice when pressed. It
also kept exceptionally well. It is not an eating apple, as many of the
cider varieties are not. I think it is interesting to grow these American
varieties which I think will have a renaissance as interest in ciders grow.
Presently the dialog that takes place on cider varieties is largely devoted
to the famous European, especially British and French varieties like
Kingston Black, Michelin, Nehou, etc.etc. That is understandable as most of
the serious cider production and consumption in the world seems to have been
located there for the last century and we all turn to serious work like
Andrew Lea's for instruction....but the vast seedling apple orchards of
North America produced thousands of trees grown largely for cider when that
commodity was a critical dietary staple as well as an important commodity
for barter and was produced on virtually any farm of substance in the
country. Many of these have been lost to cultivation as cider consumption
declined in the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries here....but it
is an intriguing idea to think of what may be produced with blends of some
of these. I am not aware that any of these have been classified as sharp,
bitter, etc., which again is so regularly applied to the British cultivars.
There is much work to be done, needless to say. All of this takes an
inordinate amount of time. You are putting in trees that will take at least
four to six years to give you an appreciable crop with which to
experiment....I hope to have apples from our Harrison trees for the first
time this year. There are very very few commercial producers of fine cider
in this country...a few in New England, a few on the West Coast...but one
hears of other fledgling or planned enterprises--I am aware of a couple in
Virginia--the most serious and far along to date is Diane Flynt's farm in
southwest Virginia....She has trees in the ground for experimenting, but her
real production will be a few years off. She attended the Cider Making
short course at Pershore last year, but I understand funding has curtailed
that--even in England--and she has visited a number of other cidermakers in
this country. My brother has pressed away and fermented a number of our
apples with varying (and some quite good} results, but considers himself
rather completely a novice. We have hosted what we call a CiderMaker's
Forum here in the fall as part of our series of seminars and workshops and
plan to do so again....November 22 is this years date. We had Gabriele
Rausse, perhaps the dean of Virginia's winemakers who is developing a bit
of cider production at Monticello as part of its horticultural program, as
our keynote speaker last year...we also featured a roundtable discussion of
those making cider on their experiences and I brought in all the serious
ciders I could reach for tasting--some of the French, Murdo Laird's from
California, a couple of the Farnum Hill ones that I could get....We hope to
expand on this as an annual event.
Well this has become a rather lengthy rejoinder....but perhaps it will be
helpful..
Charlotte
Vintage Virginia Apples LLC
P. O. Box 210
North Garden, Virginia 22959
www.vintagevirginiaapples.com
.From: Sgroppino Farms [mailto:sgroppino@sgroppino.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 1:29 AM
To: fruit@vintagevirginiaapples.com
Subject: Harrison Apple
Charlotte:
Do you know what type of cider apple the Harrison is? The description of
it on your website doesn't actually address the apple's flavor
characteristics. Would you happen to know if it's a Sharp, a Sweet, a
Bittersharp or a Bittersweet? I have a feeling that the few people I've
found who are growing this apple (Blue Ridge Cider and Nashoba Valley
Winery) may have ultimately gotten their stock from you and are soon to be
pointing me back in your direction for info.
Any additional info greatly appreciated. Thanks again.
John
* * * * *
John A Gasbarre
Sgroppino Farms
Vinalhaven Island, Maine
sgroppino@sgroppino.com
207-863-2793
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Apple: Harrison
From: Marc Montefusco <mmontefusco@newworldcider.com>
Date: Sat, 1 Mar 2003 12:59:49 -0500
According to apple and cider historians, the Harrison was one of the
mainstays of the US cider industry in the Northeast, especially around
Newark, NJ (times have changed.) It's listed as extinct in Calhoun's
Southern Apples, but Tom Burford claims to have rediscovered it, and it
is now available from a few specialty suppliers. I have two trees n my
own orchard, and aside from stem length (the historical Harrison had a
very long stem, mine don't) it matches the description very well. It's
not a very tannic apple, but it seem to have lots of sugar and a good,
but not overwhelming, flavor. Too early to tell if it's a) really
Harrison and b) as good as they make out.
Marc Montefusco
New World Cider
------------------------------
Subject: Sulphites and pH
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 09:00:07 +0000
Jason asked:
> My other question refers to the realtionship between pH and added
> sulfites. I understand that the amount of sulfites needed to control the
> major cider problems decreases as pH decreases, but do those extra sulfites
> at lower pH's become merely redundant or do they increase in efficacy,
> killing a greater and greater variety of organisms present in cider?
Yes. As the pH drops the sulphite becomes more effective because more
of it shifts in equilibrium to the 'molecular' form which is the only
lethal form able to penetrate cells. See my paper 'Sulphite Binding in
Ciders' for PDF download at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/referen.htm
>I am
> wondering because none of my ciders seem to be undergoing a malolactic
> fermentation. Not knowing the pH I added sulfites to the tune of 75ppm at
> the start of fermentation and none at bottling time. Although I still don't
> know the pH I now know that the ciders are very acidic (around .08% total
> acidity expressed as malic acid) and I am wondering if there is any chance
> that the beasties who would perform a malolactic fermentation are still
> alive. Any thoughts on this?
If you don't know the pH you are really shooting in the dark with
sulphite addition. Also, 0.08% is very _non_acidic! Are you sure you
don't mean 0.8% malic? At that acid (0.8%), the pH is likely to be
around 3.2. That is quite low for MLF to begin, whether or not any
sulphite still remains. Usually MLF begins once the weather warms up so
I would wait until June or so before worrying. If you want predictable
MLF you can add cultures nowadays which are pretty good. I did this last
year (reported here previously) and I recommend that route.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: 'Keeving' in the OED
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 02 Mar 2003 10:40:01 +0000
Thanks Eli,
I'm sure I can find a few references going back to the 1890's, possibly
even back to John Evelyn (1664). It will take a little while to put the
dossier together but I think it would be worthwhile!
(Or just unutterably sad, depending on your viewpoint!)
Andrew
> > The OED does not seem to recognise its use by cidermakers as a _verb_.
> > Shame on them! I wonder how we remedy this??
>
> They should be glad to hear. See the "how to contribute" and
> "submission form" links on http://www.oed.com/public/readers/
>
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: competitions
From: "T. J. Higgins" <tjhiggin@ant.hiwaay.net>
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:55:50 -0600 (CST)
In addition to the competitions listed by Charles, another big
one is the Sunshine Challenge, organized by the Central Florida
Home Brewers (www.cfhb.org). These are the same folks that put
on the annual Meadlennium competition every January. The Sunshine
Challenge is May 16-18, 2003.
T.J. Higgins
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Trees
From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Wed, 05 Mar 2003 09:57:03 -0500
I have no affiliation with Cummins Nursery, except as an occasional
customer, and hope that this does not tread on being considered a
commercial on this list, but:
Cummins nursery currently has a heck of a surplus sale going on for
English/French cider trees. Orders will probably have to be made soon to
ensure timely shipping. I say this not necessarily to suggest that people
dig up the best bargains they can, but more to encourage Cummins to
continue grafting these varieties. If they cannot sell what they graft,
they won't graft them in future years.
Find them at http://www.dabney.com/cumminsnursery/freebie.htm
Again, sorry about the seeming "commercial."
Terry B
=================================================================
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
(802)229-2004
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented are mine and mine only...
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1026
*************************
