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Cider Digest #1036
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1036, 17 April 2003
Cider Digest #1036 17 April 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
More on big trees/little trees (Jason MacArthur)
Re: Cider Digest #1035, 13 April 2003 ("Bill Rhyne")
RE: Bitterpit ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
patulin? (Dick Dunn)
Good News - State of Oregon Changes Direct Shipment Cider Law (roger mans...)
Apple Cultivar - Annapolis ("Charles McGonegal")
Apples of New York (Steury & Noel)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: More on big trees/little trees
From: Jason MacArthur <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 06:34:03 -0400
Here's a curveball for the ongoing discussion re: bush trees versus
bigger trees for growing cider apples. A hard cider maker, explaining
to me his preference for larger trees, mentioned that they produce
smaller fruit, all other things being equal, than a smaller tree. The
way he sees it, an apple only has so much flavor in it- the larger the
apple the more dilute this flavor is. An interesting twist, eh?
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1035, 13 April 2003
From: "Bill Rhyne" <rhyne@wli.net>
Date: Mon, 14 Apr 2003 09:22:52 -0700
RE: Observations on old trees, new trees and old vines, new vines,...and
then I wander off.
Regarding the discussion of productivity and flavor of apple trees and grape
vines, I have a few comments.
We live in the apple and wine country of Sonoma and my wife worked with
Ravenswood Winery for many years.
The winemaker there always liked to search out old abandoned zinfandel vines
or vineyards as that was his specialty. The winery worked with the farmers
as to farming techniques that could be used to develop and concentrate the
flavor in the grapes as that is where great wines start--with the fruit.
Their philosophy was that old vines have a developed root system that not
only extracts moisture and nutrients, but other flavors from the soil and
this makes these grapes more unique in the winemaking process and in the
glass. One vineyard is famous for its eucalytus trees that shed leaves onto
the vineyard and then decompose into the soil. Some people can pick up that
eucalyptus flavor when drinking this wine. Others are grown on rocky
hillsides with the thinking that this stresses the vines and intensifies the
flavor. Also these kind of winemakers want "low yields" for the farmers so
they don't like irrigation after a certain time in the season if at all,
again to intensify the flavor. In California, the rain stops around the end
of April and then we don't get rain until November or December in most
years. A summer rain storm in August is bad news for the grape growers. The
grapes for Ravenswood are picked very ripe so that the flavor is most
developed and the sugars are very high. If it rains in August, it could
burst the berries or dilute the juice right before harvesting. Not good.
When researching the cider idea years ago, we noticed that the Sebastopol
apple farmers seem to mostly dry farm as there is enough moisture in the
season to sustain an orchard due to its proximity to the ocean. This
appeared consistent with the philosophy that I learned from the winemakers
in Sonoma--dry farmed, well developed root systems, etc. I see mostly
midsize trees and not too many dwarf trees. Some farmers have really old
full size trees (over 100 years old sometimes) but these are hard to harvest
according to a conversation with a farmer yesterday. The soil out here is
called sandy loam so it is soft and drains well. The farmers will disc the
orchard in the spring so that the grass doesn't take up moisture that the
trees need and so that the soil is soft enough so the apples are bruised
when they fall off of the tree. I don't see any animals grazing in the
orchards. The apples in Sebastopol are grown mostly for processing (juice,
canning, drying, etc.) so they are grown for flavor, not size or appearance
as most fresh eating apples are. This means that less chemicals are used in
the growing process and many of the farmers here are working on organic
techniques. This is good for the environment, good for the workers, and we
hope that it is good for the flavor.
So in conclusion regarding old versus new, I think that it makes a
difference but there are so many other factors involved in making great
tasting cider that I feel that it is a difference that probably only a
experienced cider consumer would be able to detect during a side by side
pairing. There is so much cider that is sold that is like alcoholic fruit
soda with artificial ingredients that a cider maker using traditional and
natural techniques can make a product that stands out very easily from the
industry standard stuff. We just poured 3 cases of our cider (average of one
ounce per pour) at the San Francisco International Beer Festival on Saturday
and there was about 3,000 people there. Most of the people commented on our
cider that it was dry, not so sweet as the other ciders and that they liked
the fact that it wasn't sweet. I told them it was apples from Sebastopol and
nothing else. These consumers are interested in cider but their first
experiences with the industrial ciders tends to turn them off as far as I
can tell which in turn, closes their minds in some cases with regard to
trying other ciders. So the cider market from my experience in California is
not at the level that they are in the wine or craft brew markets. People
have not had enough time or exposure to taste all of the potential versions
of cider that are possible. It is going to take a few years for cider makers
to educate the market as to what is possible with apples. There is a lot of
room for a cidermaker to make his mark with his own ideas and strategies if
he is patient, diligent, persistent, etc.
I hope that these thoughts and observations help! Good luck!
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder, Inc.
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Bitterpit
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 12:20:48 -0700
When we started planting our orchard in the mid 90's the recommendation from
the Soil Testing lab was to add nitrogen to the new plantings. We
experienced bitterpit, and lots cracking on the fruit in the first several
years. The Cox, Sweet Chopin, Brownsnout and Foxwelp were severely affected,
other varieties did not show any symptoms. Some research suggested that it
was caused by an imbalance of calcium and nitrogen in the fruit and leaf and
while you could spray with calcium, withholding nitrogen would also achieve
the same result which we did. Fruit quality improved significantly.
Interesting enough when we had an leaf analysis done two years ago, the
analysis indicated that we were still over average for nitrogen in apples.
Needless to say, any use of nitrogen in the orchard, new or old has been
discontinued. The Foxwelps still have a problem and I notice that the
Foxwelps at the local Research Station are also similarly affected.
Which brings me to my next question. Our "Foxwelp" have a fruit which is
quite large(60cm); not particularly productive; has a PH of about 3.4,
ripens mid-season; is unlike the smaller Foxwelps we saw in the UK which
ripen early season. I know that there are several Foxwelp varieties, any
idea which Foxwelp this might be?
------------------------------
Subject: patulin?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2003 14:51:27 -0600 (MDT)
"Bill" <squeeze@mars.ark.com> wrote in digest 1035:
> And maybe we can talk about Patulin another time - it's the only real
> problem in apple products, and the gov't folks don't want to talk much
> about it. :-)
OK, how about "now" for talking about it? Given the inclination to use
less-than-perfect apples for cider, seems to me it's a concern worth
thinking about. I've seen very little written about it, gov't or other-
wise. My impression is that few cidermakers know anything about it, at
least few amateur cidermakers, which is what most of us on the list are.
I do remember seeing one note suggesting that fermentation might be
effective against it (i.e., that it might denature the toxin), but as I
recall it was only speculative, not definite.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Good News - State of Oregon Changes Direct Shipment Cider Law
From: roger mansfield <traditionalco@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 17:06:47 -0700 (PDT)
Oregon premium cider makers (The Traditional Co.,
White Oak Cider, and Ford Farm Cyderworks) are pleased
to announce that the State of Oregon Legislature has
passed HB2295. The recent passage of this urgency Bill
will now allow Oregon cider makers to ship cider
directly to Oregon residents and to consumers in other
states that have reciprocal wine shipping laws with
the State of Oregon. For an analysis of where
cider/wine can be shipped see:
www.wineinstitute.org/shipwine/. Our experience with
this Bill shows that it is possible to change
antiquated state laws relating to cider for the
benefit of the cider consuming public - Cheers! Roger
Mansfield
------------------------------
Subject: Apple Cultivar - Annapolis
From: "Charles McGonegal" <mamcgone@intergate.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2003 20:01:22 -0500
I was just listening to one of the old Stan Rogers albums and he mentions an
'Annapolis' apple. It would be a Nova Scotian / Maritime Province variety.
I can't locate it in the usual sources. Is any Digest reader aware of it?
Charles McGonegal
AEppeltreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Apples of New York
From: Steury & Noel <steurynoel@potlatch.com>
Date: Thu, 17 Apr 2003 05:57:51 -0700
In case anyone's looking for a copy of Apples of New York strictly for
information and not investment, Powell's Bookstore in Portland
(powells.com) has a copy of a reprint for $90. (I did not know that there
was a reprint.) Also, abebooks.com has several copies of the original
edition listed, for various prices and in various conditions.
Tim Steury
Diane Noel, Tim Steury, and David Steury
1021 McBride Road
Potlatch, ID 83855 USA
208.875.0804
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1036
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