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Cider Digest #1072
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1072, 5 September 2003
Cider Digest #1072 5 September 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
rivets (Brian Ross)
Subject: fermenting the pulp ("John A. Ray")
Still, Petillant, Sparkling cider ("Michael Janik")
RE: Sweeter ciders (Warren Place)
Re: Cider Digest #1071, 1 September 2003 ("Gary Awdey")
Re: Cider Digest #1071, 1 September 2003 (Michael Arighi)
Re: Sweeter ciders (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: rivets
From: Brian Ross <rossoon@imag.net>
Date: Mon, 01 Sep 2003 21:59:13 -0700
I have been getting my copper and stainless rivets (I make cookie
cutters) from http://www.rivetsinstock.com/ . If their minimum order is
too high, they might be able to direct you to a supplier who retails
what you need. Another outfit is
http://www.rjleahy.com/Techcenter/rivets/flat_head_rivets.htm
Cheers.
Brian Ross
------------------------------
Subject: Subject: fermenting the pulp
From: "John A. Ray" <jar18@lamar.colostate.edu>
Date: Tue, 02 Sep 2003 07:55:35 -0600
Jack,
I've fermented batches on the pulp before and have had varying degrees
of success. In general I like the added flavor complexity which this
seems to give. Pressing well aged, fermented pulp is a tedious process
as press cloths clog and can lead to some spoilage due to exposure to O2
but I've managed all right with addition of rice hulls and even more
sulfite. I would definitely give it a try. If you carry the primary
fermentation on pulp and the secondary in a carboy, you get a
significant stratification of components and the partially fermented
juice is easy to rack with most of the flavor and less of the pressing
woes that a longer on pulp process gives. From what I understand, this
is a little like what you would see in Keeving. This still leaves you
with a good quantity of juicy goo to press, but the volume is reduced.
I'd like to find a good centrifuge to try running this stuff through but
I'm a little afraid of what would happen. Been thinking of finding an
old laundry spin extractor to play with, but my wife's tolerance seems
somewhat strained when I bring this up.
On another note, Has anyone experience with Lallzyme Beta
(glucosidase/pectinase complex) that was mentioned awhile ago? Haven't
had a chance to get any in and was wondering just how much flavor
enhancement I might gain from this.
John Ray
------------------------------
Subject: Still, Petillant, Sparkling cider
From: "Michael Janik" <goldnik@softcom.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 11:58:17 -0700
I made my first batch of cider last fall. I read Priloux and Nichols and
had a mentor who is a long time cider maker. My only experience in
drinking cider had been in Austurias in northern Spain. The ciders I had
there were all made on farms or in small village (<6 houses) bars. All
were petillant (effervescent), but not sparkling, and very tasty.
For my cider, I used 2 parts Mutsu, 1part Arkansas Black, and 0.5 parts
Winesap. I got about 6 gallons of juice which I sulfited overnight and
made two, 3 gal batches--one with Old English Cider yeast and one with
Champagne yeast (White Labs). Sg was 1.062. I started the fermentation
process at about 70 degrees; fermentation started w/in 24 hours.
I moved the (plastic) fermentation containers into the
basement--temperature of about 62 F. The fermentation was active but did
not 'boil over'.
After 8 days, the fermentation slowed; after 9 more days on the lees, I
racked into 3 gal glass corbouys and topped with store bought apple
juice (probably pasteurized). Racking sg: Old English Cider, 1.001;
Champagne, 0.996.
I did a sloppy job of racking so I racked again after 2 days. The cider
in both batches continued to ferment, bubbling slowly but constantly for
3 more months. I assumed this was malo-lactic fermentation. I put the
two batches out in the garage for an additional two weeks at ~45 F
average temperature to stop the fermentation.
At bottling time, the sg of both batches read 1.00.
I made sparkling and 'still' cider from each batch.
For the sparkling, I added ~1/4 tsp priming sugar to each bottle. For
the still cider, I added:
Old English Cider yeast batch--1/4 c wine conditioner in 2.5 gal cider.
For the Champagne yeast batch, I added 1/2 c wine conditioner per 1 gal
cider. I stored the bottles in the 62 F basement (basement temperature
reached a high of 72 F in July).
After 1 month in the bottle, we "tested" some of the cider. All of the
batches were still. However, after ~ 3 months, the 'still' batches were
petillant. I tried the sparkling after 5 months and it was sparkling
(like champagne).
So, what did I do right to get the petillant cider? I thought the wine
conditioner would completely stop and prevent further fermentation. I
should note, that when bottling, I racked from the glass carboy into the
plastic fermentation buckets which had spigots installed near the bottom
and filled the bottles directly from the spigot thus mixing in some air
when I bottled.
Also, was that extended 3 month second fermentation the malo-lactic
fermentation? One brewer suggested that the yeast may have attacked the
carbohydrates, converting them to sugar and then more alcohol. Is this
possible?
Anyway, I've had a 100% positive response from folks who have tried the
cider and am picking apples for this fall's batches. Any and all
comments on my methods and/or madness will be appreciated.
Michael Janik
901 Gordon Avenue
Reno, NV 89509
goldnik@softcom.net
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Sweeter ciders
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 12:01:38 -0700 (PDT)
On Mon, 1 Sep 2003 Richard Anderson wrote:
> Some ideas to float to Digest readers.
> In the same vain, I have seen a sauterne yeast which is said to be very
> sensitive to low additions of SO2. This could be helpful in stopping
> fermentation at desired SG. But probably would not last in a bottled cider
> for any period of time. Any microbiologists out there? could there be any
> suitable yeasts which are intolerant to low levels of alcohol say, 4-6%?
There are certainly many yeasts that are intolerant of 6% ethanol
but the problem is that they are not commercially available to the best of
my knowledge. I'm a microbiologist, but I haven't researched this area
extensively since most wine yeast research focuses understanding how to
make yeast more tolerant of adverse conditions such as high ethanol.
I've been making sweet cider for about 5 years now. What has been
most successful for me is sweetening dry cider, carbonating (if desired)
and pasteurizing in the bottle. There is the risk of bottle explosion
either from the process or from continued fermentation. Even more
successful has been sweetening dry cider with sucralose (Splenda) since
yeast (and any bacteria contaminants) are not able to ferment sucralose.
The maltodextrin that is added to sucralose to make Splenda can be
fermented by some microbes, but unless you have severe contamination or
like cloying sweet cider, the small amount of potential fermentation
should not pose a serious risk of bottle breakage.
Warren Place
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1071, 1 September 2003
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Tue, 2 Sep 2003 23:05:40 -0400
In CD# 1071 Mark in Kalamazoo wrote:
>Can anyone point me toward a source of larger pressing bags, or a suitable
cloth
>material?
>From various postings here on the Digest and in the UK Cider postings it
looks like there are many suitable choices. Recently I wanted to find a
presscloth material that matched the original bags from a Goodnature press
and scouted around until I found a source (http://www.textileind.com).
Textile Industries, Inc. supplies presscloth to at least one of the larger
rack-and-cheese cider mills in New England. It's pricy compared to some of
the other types of cloth mentioned in various postings (in this case roughly
$15 to $19 per yard depending on how much you order) and comes in a width of
85 inches if you order it right off the bolt. They'll cut and hem
presscloth to your needs for an additional charge. It's a heavy (about 10
oz. I believe) white polyester twill. They were very tight-lipped about
exact description so I assume it's available from their supplier at a
substantially lower cost.
Gary
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1071, 1 September 2003
From: Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
Date: 02 Sep 2003 21:59:53 -0700
On Mon, 2003-09-01 at 21:11, Mark wrote:
<snip>
>
> Subject: Source for Press Cloth?
> From: mohrstrom@core.com
> Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2003 13:11:14 -0400
>
> Howdy, Folks -
>
> I recently acquired an old mill and press (in need of some serious
> restoration ...) I am looking for a couple of items to help the project
> along:
>
> 1) The tubs are larger than those for the HVR-type presses. Can anyone
> point me toward a source of larger pressing bags, or a suitable cloth
> material?
I've had very good luck with heavy weight nylon mosquito netting. Made
up my press cloths about 20 years ago, used them pretty much yearly, and
I think I've only replaced one in that time. They're extremely strong,
non-absorbent, and easy to clean (I rinse mine well, then run them
through the clothes washer).
<snip>
> One last question: the grinder cylinder is laminated wood. Does anyone
> use an epoxy coating in their mill? I have some WEST System epoxy
> lying about ...
I used Varathane on a wooden press tray. Called the company (which used
to be local) and asked for the plant chemist. I described the
environment it would be in (liquid, pH >2). He thought about it for a
while and said that, once it was cured, there wouldn't be any reason it
couldn't be done. We later went to fiberglass over the tray (superior
leakproofing). If you're concerned about food safety, you could
certainly use either mineral oil or a "salad bowl" finish (I know Behlen
makes one). I believe both are accepted as food-safe.
>
> Thanks!
> Mark in Kalamazoo
Welcome.
- --
Michael Arighi <calzinman@earthlink.net>
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Sweeter ciders
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 3 Sep 2003 11:09:03 -0600 (MDT)
Rich Anderson wrote:
> ...I have seen a sauterne yeast which is said to be very
> sensitive to low additions of SO2. This could be helpful in stopping
> fermentation at desired SG. But probably would not last in a bottled cider
> for any period of time. Any microbiologists out there? could there be any
> suitable yeasts which are intolerant to low levels of alcohol say, 4-6%?
But doesn't this get you into the same problem one way or another? That is
the problem that if you get any other yeast (with more alcohol tolerance)
into the cider before bottling, it will take over. It won't matter that
you used a low-alcohol-tolerance yeast unless you can assure that it's the
only yeast present.
Dick
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1072
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