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Cider Digest #1031
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1031, 29 March 2003
Cider Digest #1031 29 March 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: [ukcider] What is Real Cider ("stephen hayes")
Old trees/New trees ()
"vintage": Can this misusage be saved? (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Re: [ukcider] What is Real Cider
From: "stephen hayes" <stephen.hayes1@virgin.net>
Date: Sun, 23 Mar 2003 09:08:34 -0000
Hi again
I'm all for bottle conditioned cider, not only is it good to drink but also
keeps indefinitely so might be easier to get into pubs as you don't have the
problem of manageing cider going in a cask that isn't consumed quickly.
You can't however call it "methode champenoise" or the French will sue you.
"bottle conditioned" will do.
Stephen
- ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mark Ellis - Artisansrus.com" <mark@artisansrus.com>
To: <ukcider@yahoogroups.com>; "Cidermakers Digest"
<cidermakers@artisansrus.com>; "Cider Digest" <cider@talisman.com>
Sent: Monday, March 10, 2003 12:47 PM
Subject: [ukcider] What is Real Cider
> G'day Cider folk,
>
> Well the discussion rages on ukcider about how to best define "Real Cider"
> or whether it should even be called "Real Cider", which in itself follows
> the CAMRA principle of "Real Ale"
>
> Well as a Aussie, maybe I have a unique prospective???? ;-)
>
> Now I know certain countries have a need to observe commercial intricacies
> regarding the literature of certain of products, and indeed this must by
it
> definition take precedence to all other considerations.....
>
> So.......
>
> I recommend;
>
> I seem to have struck upon a system that might work, well maybe.
>
> Traditional **** Cider - Methode ****
>
> The traditional part being inclusive that the product maintains 100% juice
> , with no non-apple sugar additions. May or may not have preservative
> additions. May be still or be naturally carbonated without any non-apple
> sugar additions.
>
> The **** part would be the regional definition. i.e., British, French,
> Spanish, German, American, Aussie blah. That way the somewhat narrow
> construct which define cider for the various.
>
> Example A. - eg. [just pretend now] The Maestro, Andrew Lea, produces a
> product called "Olde Gold" Lets say a Tremlett's and KB blend as a
> Champagne style seeing that it has been a superb year and that sugars where
> very high and the product is deserving of the style. So it would read on
> the label;
>
> Traditional British Cider - Methode Champenoise
>
> This would cement the notion that Traditional Cider would be pure apple
> juice [whether concentrates or not is a different issue entirely], and that
> it uses apple juice (where carbonation is desired) to provide a sparkling
> product..
>
> Just thought this up so would like to encourage discussion re. same.
>
> Catcha
>
> Mark E. in OZ
> <<<<<<<< http://www.Artisansrus.com >>>>>>
> Ancient Fermentable Arts Discussion Groups
> inc. cheese, wine, beer, cider, mead and more....
> <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
------------------------------
Subject: Old trees/New trees
From: <rotread@localnet.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:57:00 -0500 (EST)
Do old apple trees produce better cider? Not too long ago one
experienced cider maker told me he "doesn't trust" the fruit from young
trees. A few days later another old time cider maker and orchardist
scoffed at this notion when I asked him about it. He argued that the
variety and the terroir are of the utmost importance, and that the age
of the root system are not that important. I am wondering if any cider
makers have experience or opinions regarding this question, specifically
those who live or have traveled in traditional cider making regions
where the art is still alive. Are old trees being replaced by younger,
smaller trees?Also, a question regarding apple scab- how damaging are
scabby apples to a cider's flavor? Do infected trees produce lesser
quality cider fruit? I hope everyone's cider is tasting good, Jason
------------------------------
Subject: "vintage": Can this misusage be saved?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sat, 29 Mar 2003 11:02:03 -0700 (MST)
In Cider Digest 1028, I mentioned a class of English cider apple...
>...These are the varieties
> often designated as "vintage", the common current definition of that term
> being apples which produce a juice balanced enough to make a good single-
> varietal cider.
I want to pick up something I only alluded to in that note: that the use
of the term "vintage" has shifted. There's a problem.
Current usage is, as I indicated, a tag for varieties suited for single-
varietal ciders. Several of the current best and most common cider/apple
books--Proulx & Nichols, Watson, Morgan & Richards, for example--use the
term this way.
Unfortunately, the "classical" usage is different. It refers to those
varieties which have particular characteristics suitable for cider-making,
but doesn't imply single-varietal ciders. The term "vintage"was coined (or
appropriated, if you will) by Hogg and Bull (yes, those are the real names!)
in the late 19th century, to refer simply to particularly good cider
varieties.
And thus the problem: There are lists of varieties which are tied to the
classical usage of "vintage". People have picked up those lists and
associated them with the modern usage, leading them to think that certain
varieties are suitable for single-varietal ciders when in fact those apples
are way out of balance.
The change in meaning seems to have happened relatively recently in cider
history. I've been swapping notes with Andrew on this topic off-list for
a while now. Andrew dug up the following explanation from Beech and
Pollard, _Cidermaking_, 1957:
"Vintage quality is not to be confused with balance of flavour as
defined by acidity, sweetness, and astringency - these are easily
determined by chemical analysis as well as by taste. A cider can be
balanced in flavour and yet lacking vintage quality; conversely a
vintage cider may be out of balance - for example, a cider made entirely
from vintage sharps would be excessively out of balance and would
require blending with ciders lower in acidity. One of the arts of cider
making is to blend the fruit varieties or ciders made from them to give
a cider balanced in flavour and at the same time to bring out and
combine the particular qualities of the varieties. No blend of
indifferent fruit varieties will give a vintage cider although the blend
can be adjusted to give a drinkable product for everyday use."
Andrew notes that Beech and Pollard worked for B T Barker at Long Ashton.
Barker led the work to classify and analyze the "vintage" (classical sense)
varieties at LARS over quite a few years, and published several lists of
what were considered vintage varieties. Barker's work is the reference for
these English varieties. (See Copas' _A_Somerset_Pomona_.)
So now what?
The current mis-use of "vintage" probably has to go, somehow. Even though
the Barker work is "older", it's still the ground-work for the term. That
usage is also being carried forward in current books, such as _Fermented_
_Beverage_Production_ or _A_Somerset_Pomona_.
But can we get rid of the current usage and revert to the older, or are we
stuck with putting the term "vintage" on the shelf?
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1031
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