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Cider Digest #1032
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1032, 1 April 2003
Cider Digest #1032 1 April 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: old trees/new trees (Terence L Bradshaw)
RE: Cider Digest #1031, 29 March 2003 ("Jeremy Arntz")
The Lost Taliaferro--again ("Vintage Virginia Apples LLC")
cider apples (mike tomlinson)
Hewes and/or Wickson used on bigger scale? (Scott Smith)
Old trees / new trees? (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: Re: old trees/new trees
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 08:46:16 -0500
There are a few things to look at here. Generally younger trees that are
still in an active vegetative growth stage will tend to produce fruit
higher in nitrogen, especially if the trees are being fed. The growing
tissue will also use a fair amount of calcium which will not be available
to the fruit. High N and low Ca are detrimental to overall fruit
quality...the fruit are softer,poorly colored, tend to be low in sugar and
flavor. That said, a young tree has too grow, and should be pushed,
reasonably, in its formative years to get it to the desired size
quickly. Generally speaking, nitrogen inputs can be withheld from a
well-established tree after year four or so, maybe earlier if you have
heavy soil with solid nitrogen reserves. And I do not believe in the idea
of running sheep through the mature orchard to 'remove the nitrogen in the
groundcover.' Sheep poop, and that provides a very ready source not only
of nitrogen, but also e. coli and other such critters.
With small trees you have a greater percentage of potential solar energy
reaching into the canopy and consequently hitting the fruit. This is
desirables for dessert fruit, but I recall reading somewhere that tannin
levels decline with exposure to full sun. It is my feeling that cider
fruit can be grown on even full dwarf trees but extra care must be taken to
leave some shading shoots in the top to prevent the fruit themselves from
receiving too much sun.
Apple scab: a little is harmless. A heavily infested tree will not only
show reduced yield and tree vigor, but the fruit that are harvested will be
lower in sugars, softer, and smaller. A lot of my professional work is
done on McIntosh, sometimes testing scab programs, and I'll say that a
heavily scab-infested tree in a bad year may be the most miserable sight
you've laid your eyes on. That said, I currently use only nonsprayed fruit
for my cider, I just go for less susceptible varieties and crabs, until my
home orchard comes into bearing.
Hope that helps,
TB
At 10:31 PM 3/29/2003 -0700, you wrote:
>Subject: Old trees/New trees
>From: <rotread@localnet.com>
>Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 16:57:00 -0500 (EST)
>
> Do old apple trees produce better cider? Not too long ago one
> experienced cider maker told me he "doesn't trust" the fruit from young
> trees. A few days later another old time cider maker and orchardist
> scoffed at this notion when I asked him about it. He argued that the
> variety and the terroir are of the utmost importance, and that the age
> of the root system are not that important. I am wondering if any cider
> makers have experience or opinions regarding this question, specifically
> those who live or have traveled in traditional cider making regions
> where the art is still alive. Are old trees being replaced by younger,
> smaller trees?Also, a question regarding apple scab- how damaging are
> scabby apples to a cider's flavor? Do infected trees produce lesser
> quality cider fruit?
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
madshaw@innevi.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1031, 29 March 2003
From: "Jeremy Arntz" <jeremy@uploadjoe.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 11:20:40 -0500
Hey,
I have some cider thats been sitting in secondary since last
Sept. I used peptic enzyme and its still very cloudy I was
wondering what I could used to clarify it?
Also I used an Ale Yeast, but the cider still has a strong
Alcohol taste (not sure if its a bad medicine taste yet or
not.) How can I sweeten this up a bit before bottling.
Thanks,
Jeremy
------------------------------
Subject: The Lost Taliaferro--again
From: "Vintage Virginia Apples LLC" <fruit@vintagevirginiaapples.com>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 19:53:23 -0500
It may be of interest to this group to know another take on the lost
Taliaferro apple...Tom Burford shared this on the apple with me recently as
we discussed interest in cider making and the discussion of American
varieties we have noted here...
Final Evaluation of the Taliaferro Apple
In 1996 Garden Design Magazine presented an article that introduced the find
of an apple with characteristics of the "Taliaferro," a cider variety
planted in the fruitery at Monticello. For many years it was known as "the
mystery apple of Monticello" because it disappeared from cultivation and
there was no obvious satisfactory "find" for it.
A few apples described in the Garden Design article were sent to me, Tom
Burford, by the guardian of the tree for identification and evaluation. In
the following years I found three other sources of an apple that fit the
contradictory descriptions in pomological literature, one in West Virginia
and two others in Virginia. The West Virginia one has been eliminated and
the other Virginia ones are still being evaluated. Recently, I have located
even another apple that is a candidate and it is likely that in the coming
years others will emerge.
The high quality cider made from the Garden Design described apple was
admirably described by Frank Browning in his book Apples, published in 1998.
This variety is a meritorious cider maker. But on my advice this apple was
never planted at Monticello.
Be aware that the orchard at Monticello is an archeologically accurate
restoration orchard, not a re-created one. It is a remarkable botanical
landscape that demands enormous scholarly research and integrity. It is my
opinion that when a variety is botanically questionable for a restoration
orchard, don't plant it.
We so wish to make puzzles fit that in time doubts fall away. This has
forced the closure to this apple candidate.
In my seven years of evaluation as an apple historian two facts about this
particular "Taliaferro" have remained constant. The size is too large
(grapeshot description) and the apple is pleasantly edible. Because of
these factors and the inaccurate publicity about the apple that is launching
it as The Taliaferro I have decided to close my evaluation. The findings of
any other evaluators are certainly welcome.
In my opinion the apple as described in Garden Design Magazine as a
candidate for the Taliaferro is not the Taliaferro.
Tom Burford
PO Box 367
Monroe, VA 24574
burford@msn.com
Charlotte Shelton
Vintage Virginia Apples LLC
P. O. Box 210
North Garden, Virginia 22959
www.vintagevirginiaapples.com
------------------------------
Subject: cider apples
From: mike tomlinson <tugger@netreach.net>
Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2003 20:17:34 -0800
Wm. Michael Tomlinson
108 Reno Way
Santa Cruz, CA 95060
E-mail: Tugger@netreach.net
Until this winter I had spent about 5 winters combing the Phila. Pa
libraries and other historic sources trying ot learn about apples,
orchards, cider and cider apple varieites that pre dated 1850-1900. This
is a brief outline of what I have learned about the group of apples known
as Cider Apples. The purpose of this email/internet project is to try,
before more American folklore and information disappears, to develop
for the record a list of desriable varieties for cultivation by those
folks who want to make great cider.
Several cider makers ( Dick Dunn, Andrew Lee, Murdo Laird, Tom Burford,
Kevin Minchew and Roy Bailey and some of the folks at Cornell to mention
just a few) and I have chatted or emailed over the past 5 years and I'm
happy to see the subject currently being discussed on the Cider Digest.
Several years ago someone wrote me an email about a book called "Processed
Apple Products" edited by a Don Downing published by AVI Van Nostrand
in 1989 (ISBN 0-442-22117-7) in which there is a chapter on apple cider
and a table that may go a long way towards helping to identify American
cider apples. Unfortunately I did not log in from whom I got the email but
the author indicated that the table represents analytical data on cider
cultivars grown and processed at the New York Agricultural Experiment
Station, Geneva, NY. The credit is to unpublished data (1980) by Bob
LaBelle , who was once a staff member at NYSAES. It looks as if all
the data was obtained in just one season sometime in the late 70's.
The email writer noted further that Downing also points out that the
tannin data is generally much lower than the relevant composite Long
Ashton data (see above) - the NYSAES figures are about half the LARS
ones. This may reflect the particular season or the growing conditions
at Geneva compared to NW Europe, or may reflect a different analytical
technique for tannin measurement. The method of measurement is not
quoted by Downing. All the LARS data was obtained by the Lowenthal
permanganate titration, and it is known that different methods of tannin
'measurement' can give wildly different figures on the same sample.
As a comparative series of data, however, this table is probably reliable
Cider Apple Varieties
American? varieties grown in SE PA pre 1850-1900
Here is what I currently have growing in my orchard in PA. I collected
scions and grafted in spring 2000, planted in nursey, transplanted fall
2000 or spring 2001 and they were doing well as of late fall 02. No
fruit to speak of yet..
As I presume most of us know, most apples pre 1850-75 were converted
into cider-hard-for ease of transportation and sale. And as cider was
the national beverage til beer came along and the temperance folks drove
cider almost out of existence, we probably made some pretty good drinks.
Doing my research I found little written evidence of discussion of recipes
or blends. I would hazzard a guess that the varieties that a nursery would
sell or a farmer would plant more than one or two of would indicate their
favorable use in making cider.
The following is extracted from my notes re the first evidence of the
variety being grown in SE PA and what they were used for. My notes are
from Wm Prince Nursery 1790, Coxe ( also sold via retail Nursery) 1817,
Bartram ( published multiple handbills listing varieties for sale)1828,
AJ Downing (Author)1845, Carlson ( Author) 1850, Hoopes ( a Chester
Co. PA retail Nursery owner) 1859, Dingee ( a Chester co., PA orchard
owner)1872, Beach (Apples of NY author)1905, Tom Burford ( a VA apple
collector and author)1999, Steve Jackson (a Wash. state grower)1999 .
Variety Author or Source Document place of origin,etc.
Cider
Eng. Redstreak - Bartram
Golden pearmain - Cox
Haas - Dingee
Cider & Eating
Bailey's Sweet - Beach, Dingee
Fanny - Beach (Lanc Co)
Hubbardston Non Such - Wm Prince, (12% sugar)
Lady Sweeting - Hoopes, Beach, Burford (NY state)
McIntosh - Carlson (Ont, Canada)
Pomme Gris - Bartram
Cider, Eating & Cooking
American Golden Russet - Cox
Baldwin - Carlson, Beach
Ben Davis (redstreak) - Carlson
Davis - Cox
Esopus Spitz. - Coxe (Jefferson purchase 1790)
Gilpin - Cox (Del Valley)
Green Newtown Pip - Cox
Grimes Golden - Carlson (18.1% sugar)
Jefferis - Beach, Burford (Chester Co)
Lady - Wm Prince (Italy,France)
Long Stem - Cox (Pa, Conn, Mass)
Mother - Hoopes
Porter - Embree (Mass)
Priestly - Cox (Bucks Co, PA)
Ribston Pip - Cox, Carlson (Eng)
Rome Beauty - Carlson (Ohio)
Roxbury Russet/ Shippen Russet - Cox (Mass/Conn & PA if Shippen)
Smokehouse - Embree (Lanc Co)
Sops of Wine - Dingee (Eng)
Swaar - Cox, AJD (NY)
Wine - Cox (Del or NJ)
Cider, Eating , Cooking & Fodder
Golden Russet - AJD (Eng)
Cider & Cooking
Cathead - Cox (Eng)
Grindstone - Cox, AJD (NJ)
Hawley - Hoopes, Cox, Beach (NY)
Summer pearmain - Cox
Tolman Sweet - Dingee, AJD (RI)
Cider, cooking & Fodder
Campfield - Cox, AJD (NJ)
Plus per Alice Miller's All about Apples (pg 60) categorizing
varieties for cider:
(I have all but the crabs)
sweet subacid:
baldwin,rome beauty, delicious, cortland, grimes golden
mild acid to slight tart:
winesap, jonathan, stayman, northern spy, York Imperial, wealthy, RI
Greening, newtown pip
bulk of fruit for cider should come from these two categories
aromatic
delicious, golden del., winter banana, mcintosh (fragrance and flavor)
astringent
red siberian, trancendant, martha ( crab apples)
SEE http://hortweb.cas.psu.edu/courses/hort432/lecturenotes/cider.html
------------------------------
Subject: Hewes and/or Wickson used on bigger scale?
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 11:13:46 -0500
From reading about the US cider apples, Hewes crab and Wickson crab are
the two which seem to get the most glowing comments in terms of the
quality of cider they are capable of producing. Yet, I've never heard
of anyone using them for significant production. Does anyone have a
good stand of either of these? Did they in fact produce great cider?
And if you chose not, is there a reason why not?
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Old trees / new trees?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2003 18:31:50 +0100
Jason asked:
>
> Do old apple trees produce better cider? Not too long ago one
> experienced cider maker told me he "doesn't trust" the fruit from young
> trees. A few days later another old time cider maker and orchardist
> scoffed at this notion when I asked him about it. He argued that the
> variety and the terroir are of the utmost importance, and that the age
> of the root system are not that important.
Two issues here. One is that cider from mature 'standard' trees is
generally reckoned to be higher quality than those from bush trees
(though of course a true paired comparsion is almost impossible). One
reason for this might be that the nitrogen level in big old trees is
lower, so the juices ferment more slowly (if no nutrients are added)
which is beneficial to flavour generation by yeast. Also the native
apple flavour components are at a higher concentration (the adverse
effect of excess nitrogen on apple flavour is well known and is probably
to do with the diversion of the carbohydrate pool into flavour compounds
when nitrogen is limiting since it cannot then be used for protein
synthesis and growth). But of course a lot of this also depends on how
much nitrogen is applied. Big old trees tend to be supplied with
less fertilisers anyway. And traditionally, they often had animals
grazing under them which reduced nutrient supply still further.
The second issue is simply that juvenile bush trees seem to assimilate
more nitrogen than older bush trees, even under exactly the same
nutrient regime. So, again, cider from young bush trees might be
regarded as lower in quality.
(See the essay 'Nitrogen the Forgotten Element' on my website).
> I am wondering if any cider
> makers have experience or opinions regarding this question, specifically
> those who live or have traveled in traditional cider making regions
> where the art is still alive. Are old trees being replaced by younger,
> smaller trees?
Generally when new cider trees are planted they are bush trees. In the
last 40 years that has typically been the case. But many people
planting new high quality cider orchards in the UK are going for
standard trees, believeing that higher quality ciders will result. Also,
such an orchard is much nicer to look at!
>Also, a question regarding apple scab- how damaging are
> scabby apples to a cider's flavor? Do infected trees produce lesser
> quality cider fruit?
While I would not want to encourage any sort of poor practice in an
orchard, a small amount of fruit scab might have a beneficial effect on
flavour. Stressed fruit, up to a point, is more flavourful due to
greater synthesis of 'secondary metabolites' perhaps as plant
protectants. Personally I have always found stressed dessert apples more
flavourfull. But, as in human life, while a small amount of stress
enables you to deliver at your best, too much stress is of no benefit at
all. A tree which loses all its leaves due to scab or poor nutrition is
of no use to anyone! So the art is in keeping the balance!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1032
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