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Cider Digest #1066
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Subject: Cider Digest #1066, 14 August 2003
Cider Digest #1066 14 August 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Where to buy apples or juice in Northern California? (David Radwin)
Colonial New England Sugar ("Brook Martenis")
re: the emperor's new raisins ?!? (Travis Dahl KE4VYZ)
American Cider styles - mythical, historical, current ("McGonegal, Charles")
Slow Food cider criteria (Benjamin Watson)
Re: ice cider (Scott Smith)
the emperor's new raisins ?!? ("John Howard")
skins - ice cider ("John Howard")
belgian ale yeast for cider? (Mark Beck)
more on New England, sugar, and cider ("Brook Martenis")
Re: Cider- whatever it is- issues (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Where to buy apples or juice in Northern California?
From: David Radwin <dradwin@yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 21:11:23 -0700 (PDT)
I know that there are numerous great apple orchards
and cider makers in northern California, particularly
Sonoma County. Does anyone know of a source for cider
apples or juice for sale to the public? I don't mean
farm stands that sell common eating apples like
Gravenstein and Golden Delicious--these are not hard
to find--but someone that sells more exotic varieties
like Foxwhelp, Kingston Black, etc. in relatively
small quantities suitable for home cider makers.
Thank you for your help.
David in Berkeley CA
------------------------------
Subject: Colonial New England Sugar
From: "Brook Martenis" <boosbaas@vtlink.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:03:45 -0400
New England had ample access to West Indian Sugar from early Colonial
times on thru the 19th century. New England's shipping trade with the
Caribbean Islands was huge, sending lumber, dried fish and probably
other foodstuffs, and manufactured goods south, and returning with
sugar, indigo, and other tropical exports (look at all the pineapple
motiffs in Colonial woodworking). New England produced rum from much of
the sugar. And I believe that rum was foremost among the products New
England ships took East in the Triangle Trade slave business. New
England's historians and apologists have liked to teach that revulsion
to slavery led to a distain for sugar by the admirable 'common people',
and resistance to the British Sugar Act (predating the Stamp Act by a
year or so) was one of the precursors to the Revolution, but there was
plenty of the stuff around. Best regards - Russ Ford
------------------------------
Subject: re: the emperor's new raisins ?!?
From: Travis Dahl KE4VYZ <dahlt@umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 08:35:00 -0400 (EDT)
Well, in _Wines & Beers of Old New England_ by Sanborn C. Brown (hardly a
definitive reference) the author says "If the farmers had honey or sugar
to spare, addition of this to the sweet cider would, of course, increase
the potency when fermented...To increase its alcoholic content and to
improve its keeping quality, especially when shipped to hotter climates,
sugar was often added."
My impression is that most "historical" styles of alcohol were much less
rigid in their "style" and recipes. If you had it, you used it.
My two cents. I'd be very interested to hearing other people's takes on
this.
Travis
A2, MI
>Subject: the emperor's new raisins ?!?
>From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
>Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:34:58 -0600 (MDT)
>
>Terry Maloney <terry@westcountycider.com> wrote in the last Cider Digest:
>> There have been several mentions in recent digests of Traditional New
>> England Cider as having sugar or raisins added. Our neighbors here in
>> Western Massachusetts who have been making hard cider from generation to
>> generation, "the way they always have", don't add anything. And when
>> you think about it, sugar and raisins were luxury items until the late
>> 1800's-- not something that would be used by a frugal Yankee...
>
>OK, so Terry makes some good points here. But, then, where have we gotten
>the idea of a "traditional" New England cider style that is massively
>chaptalized (sugar or raisins)?? Is there any basis for it? Is it some-
>how a minor variation on a style that grew through folklore?
>
>I think a lot of us have been coasting along assuming that this was a real
>style...and deferring to its validity, even though it's not something we
>would make, nor something we've much encountered. Terry has really thrown
>down the gauntlet, in a historical sense. Is it nothing but an "urban
>legend" (in this case, a "rural legend")?
>
>The idea of using raisins, in particular, ought to be something the his-
>torians among us could ferret out.
>
>Dick
------------------------------
Subject: American Cider styles - mythical, historical, current
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 07:41:15 -0500
If the "New England" cider with high chaptalization turns out to be a myth,
I still wonder if there _ever_ were any specific North American cider
styles.
Various fruit books list the Graniwinkle/Harrison combo as being
characteristic to New Jersey ciders of a certain era. I would suspect
Newtown/Albemarle Pippin and various Jefferson apples of being important in
Virginia at some point. The Great Lakes/St. Lawerence River area seems to
lean to Golden Russet and McIntosh descendents.
None of those variations speak to differences in technique. I am,
admittedly, profoundly ignorant about this little detail of history. Are
there any serious (no necessarily professional) historians among us?
For that matter, even in Europe, are regional differences dominated by
climate and cultivar, rather than by production technique?
Current US small cider makers (myself included) seem to be beating a path
toward European high(er) tannin apples. While they will (hopefully)
improved our blends, it seems like they must necessarily depart from any
regional tradition (if there was one at all). Can any of us lay claim to
someone else's cider tradition? I guess the craft beer folks do it all the
time.
I suppose it would be a very American thing to say "Made by the Various Bits
of Traditions That I Happen To Like" ? but it's kind of hard to use in your
marketing.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Slow Food cider criteria
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:03:27 -0400
Mike Tomlinson wrote:
> Given the above points I seem to be disqualified from belonging to the
> Slow Foods group or even this group of cider people for I am using a
> pasteurized "store bought" apple juice blend. While I am here in CA for
> that is all I can buy. I have contacted over 25 orchards from here
> north
> in CA and can not find anyone who will sell unpasteurized juice. They
> won't take the legal chance after the Odwalla situation and I can't say
> I blame them. As the wave of (quasi) legal requirments for
> pasteuriztion
> growns I suspect that the number of small commercial cider operations
> will decrease because of the risk and the fact that the numbers don't
> work.
Our goal in trying to define (at least for Slow Food "Ark of Taste"
purposes isn't to be restrictive or punitive to people making good
cider. But I feel pretty strongly about the pasteurization point and
don't feel that we should be listing ciders made from juice pasteurized
before fermentation, or from concentrate.
Slow Food is very concerned with the "organoleptic" quality of foods,
and though I don't find UV-pasteurized juice as bad as heat-pasteurized
juice, I still don't think it tastes the same as raw cider. With
heating, you lose natural enzymes and microflora; don't know about UV,
but it certainly has some effects on microflora.
Slow Food is very strong on raw milk and raw milk cheese, for instance,
and is against both the industrialization and homogenization of the
food system (the one-size-fits-all mentality that is "efficient" and
allows you to send essentially sterilized, denatured food all over the
world). I see raw cider as a similar kind of campaign.
If we accept the ridiculous fear-mongering arguments of the government
against E. coli 0157:H7 and just surrender and "settle" for pasteurized
juice as the standard, then we have simply quit the field without a
fight that I, for one, think is winnable.
It's too bad that Mike can't source raw cider in Santa Cruz, but the
only way this is going to change is through education (of industry,
government, and consumers). And the option is to opt out of the
industrial food systems that promote such nonsensical "food safety"
measures and debase the taste of our food. In other words, as Mike
says, grow or buy and press your own fruit, or buy raw cider "under the
table" from small local cidermakers who still understand what cider is
supposed to taste like.
A possibly dissenting opinion comes from Cornell, in a
soon-to-be-issued research paper that Ian Merwin sent to Terry Maloney,
and Terry forwarded to me yesterday. In it the researcher studies the
differences between various treatments on the final character of
fermented "hard" cider; treatments ranged from sulfites to heat and UV
pasteurization, etc.
She found only slight differences in the quality and characteristics of
the fermented cider. But quite frankly, I don't know how the tasting
was conducted, or who was involved. There are more phenolic compounds
in the raw cider that was only sulfited and in the "natural cider"
control -- and she points that out. But there certainly are differences
in the final product.
Sorry to rattle on . . .
Ben Watson
------------------------------
Subject: Re: ice cider
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 09:52:07 -0400
Ben, thanks for the fascinating information on the ice ciders of
Quebec. For others that may be interested, here are two that I found
with websites:
http://www.icecider.com
http://www.cidredeglace.com
(both have pages in English). Of course none of this is available
anywhere near me; I would love to try a sip of it. It looks like the
idea is only a few years old and is due to an inspiration by the wine
grower Christian Barthoneuf.
It is interesting how they are making a more sweet drink. I have been
aiming for something more like a Riesling wine, sweet but not a dessert
wine. From my initial experiments, something as good as a Riesling can
be made, and with plenty of interesting unique character. It is
possible to concentrate it as much as you want using a freezer, by
repeated freezings. This is somewhat analogous to what happens with
apples on the tree, which freeze-thaw-freeze. On the tree the apples
lose the water by freeze-drying, and some also stays in the press as
ice. I wonder if there is much taste difference between the "natural"
and the "artificial" method. They seem to be aiming for a significant
concentration, getting 11% alcohol with significant residual sweetness.
So the must is in the 1.10+ initial gravity range.
Fun stuff!
- -Scott
------------------------------
Subject: the emperor's new raisins ?!?
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 11:15:12 -0400
Pure speculation... but why be encumbered by the facts? Perhaps prohibition
influenced business-minded yankee cidermakers to fill a market vacuum for
strong(er) drink by adding sugar to their humble brew? Or, perhaps thrifty
thirsty yanks simply took advantage of the cheapening market for refined
sugar and raisins to get a little more bang for the buck? Or, did these
practical yanks find that a higher alcohol content did a better job of
preserving the product. All of the above?
What's really interesting is that our American notions of tradition are so
malleable. In Spain there is an old phase used between parting friends, "May
no new thing arise." Can you imagine such an attitude in the US? It is the
spirit of innovation that is at the heart of American culture, and its a
minority who appreciate some of the things that fall beside the way of
progress. Slow food for thought...
John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
Subject: skins - ice cider
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2003 13:12:09 -0400
Several days ago someone asked if leaving skins in the fermentation would
increase tannin levels similar to red wine process. As a fellow complete but
eager novice, I've been hoping one of the more experienced hands was going
to comment on this.
Ben probably already knows about this, but in the far corner of the farmer's
market in the Italian section of Montreal, there is a store that specializes
in Quebecois products. As of last summer, they had over a dozen different
ice ciders for sale along with an amazing assortment of fruit wines and
ciders. Some of the ice ciders were commanding a hefty price and the ones I
tried (the cheap ones) were tasty.
John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
Subject: belgian ale yeast for cider?
From: Mark Beck <beckmk@whitman.edu>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 11:38:17 -0700
Sorry if this is a repeat question, but I'm new to this digest.
I'm not a purist, and I've been making cider for a number of years using
the same basic recipe: 5 gallons juice, 2-3 lbs honey, a little cinnamon,
and ale yeast. Makes a nice dry cider.
I've been wondering about using Belgian Trappist/Abbey yeast in a
cider. This yeast certainly gives beer a unique flavor that I think might
work well in a cider. Anyone out there tried this?
Thanks,
Mark Beck
Walla Walla, WA
------------------------------
Subject: more on New England, sugar, and cider
From: "Brook Martenis" <boosbaas@vtlink.net>
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 15:38:19 -0400
American production of refined sugar for domestic consumption during the
1770s was over 23,000 hundredweight per year (1300 tons per year). Over
300 tons more were imported annually. This is apart from consumption of
the cheaper unrefined muscovado type sugar. (From "As Various As Their
Land: The Everyday Lives of 18th Century Americans" by Stephanie Grauman
Wolf. HarperCollins 1993, describing the "voracious colonial sweet
tooth"). (She also says there were over 140 distilleries at the time
turning molasses into cheap rum).
"During the eighteenth century, cider became an important export
commodity from New England. To increase its alcoholic content and to
improve its keeping quality, especially when shipped to hotter climates,
sugar was often added. By the late eighteenth century the standard cider
for sale in taverns ran around 7 1/2 percent alcohol, the sugar content
of the must having been raised from the 5 percent of the cider made from
apples alone." (From "Wines & Beers of Old New England" by Sanborne C.
Brown. University Press of New England 1978).
Jack Larkin, in "The Reshaping of Everyday Life" (Harper and Row 1988)
quotes an 1833 observer as stating the common laborer of the time in
Philadelphia spent more on sugar and tea than on meat.
I'll close with the Swedish naturalist Peter Kalm, writing in November
1749 from Albany, New York. "The best cider in America is said to be
made in New Jersey and about New York, hence this cider is preferred to
any other. I have scarcely ever tasted any better cider than that from
New Jersey." ("Travels in North America" by Peter Kalm. 1770 English
translation reprinted by Dover Press.)
I realize this doesn't directly answer some of the questions raised
recently about 'New England Style' ciders with sugar or raisins added,
but maybe it sheds a little light on it... Peter Kalm is a fascinating
observer. He was a friend and correspondent of John Bartram and Ben
Franklin and a student of the scientist Linnaeus. - Russ Ford
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider- whatever it is- issues
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2003 16:04:48 -0600 (MDT)
Regarding Mike Tomlinson's issues and complaints in CD 1065: Mike, I
expect you're going to get a wide variety of reactions to what you wrote.
My own personal reaction is that you're getting carried away and even
starting to whine a bit. Moreover I think the folks who are making their
own cider from start to finish deserve more respect than you give them.
I know (from discussions off-digest as well as what you've posted on the
CD) that you're interested, involved, and putting a lot of effort into
cider and apples. But after giving us background on all that work, you
wrote:
> * Given the above points I seem to be disqualified from belonging to the
> Slow Foods group or even this group of cider people for I am using a
> pasteurized "store bought" apple juice blend...
It's over the top to complain you're "disqualified from belonging to...
even this group of cider people". Most of this group makes cider from
purchased juice, and even more of us have done so in the past. It's quite
possible to produce a good cider that way. If it weren't, the Cider Digest
would probably have about 60 readers instead of 600! But what's *special*
about doing it that way?
And, for all that you're doing with heirloom apples and such, what of any
of it is involved in producing your cider?
>...While I am here in CA for
> that is all I can buy. I have contacted over 25 orchards from here north
> in CA and can not find anyone who will sell unpasteurized juice...
Tim Bray suggested (CD 1061) that he likely knew of a few suppliers in
Mendocino and Sonoma. He also asked a fairly obvious question (that I
haven't seen you answer), namely "why not buy apples?" More than just
eliminating the question of pasteurization, it gives you control over
the blending.
Setting up an orchard takes a fair bit of time and money, but having your
own press is simple.
>...So with these constraints on the producion of cider you may not be able
> to find anyone who will meet the various ciriteria and therefore wind up
> with no one. Sorry for venting!
Oh, I don't think we've half run out of cider-makers yet!
Now, let me ask you to take a few steps in the OTHER fellow's shoes. Think
about a person who's producing his own cider, start to finish, grafting to
glass. Imagine the thoughts going through that hypothetical cider-maker's
mind as he reads what you wrote:
"I started ten years ago: planning, plowing, manuring, mulching,
grafting, nursing-along, and planting. I lost trees and I had setbacks
as I learned along the way. In those years it was all work and expense,
neither a dime of return nor a drop of cider. After five years I saw
the first few apples, and that gave me hope...but it really only meant
there was more work than ever. And when the trees finally started
producing useful quantities, it just added two more months to the cider-
work year."
"I'm in the orchard from March to October: pruning, staking, mowing,
seeing to the irrigation, thinning, spraying...and if I'm lucky,
finally picking. I get bit and stung and baked and burned and soaked.
I have to contend with biennialism and late frosts affecting the yields
of different varieties. I have to think about how the summer weather
affects the sugar and acid, how I'm going to balance the year's cider
in the face of all those variables. And shall I sulfite, and how much,
and shall I gamble on wild yeast?"
"Now, the local apple producers take the culls of their eating apples,
whatever random bunch they have, press them into juice, cook it up and
put it into jugs to sell. And here's this fellow who just pops on down
to the local farmer's market and buys a few jugs of that juice to toss
in a carboy...and hey, presto! he's decided he's a craft cider maker,
same as me."
"Why do I bother?!?"
Mike, all of us can make good cider. Heck, you can make a decent cider
from frozen grocery-store concentrate. (I've done it and I'm not ashamed
of having done so. It was what was available to me back then.) Just the
same, we can make decent wines from canned wine-grape-juice concentrate,
and we can make decent beer from malt extract. But it doesn't make us
leaders, nor distinguished in our craft, to do so.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1066
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