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Cider Digest #1070
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1070, 28 August 2003
Cider Digest #1070 28 August 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Bretts and lactics in cider (Andrew Lea)
French cider (Andrew Lea)
RE: Cider Digest #1069, 24 August 2003 ("Stevan Vaughan")
Garbage Disposals ("Stefan Berggren")
Brettanomyces/Lactobacillus; British origin of Brettanomyces (apte@parc.com)
Deer Fencing ("chris horn")
Perry Rootstocks? ("Mark Ellis")
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Subject: Bretts and lactics in cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:24:35 +0100
Dick wrote;
>
> Ben, you're hardly the only one who has misunderstood this!
> It has been a widespread belief that the "farmyard" character in cider
> comes from a slight Brett infection. Nor is it an unreasonable idea, and
> if one is coming from a wine-making perspective it makes perfect sense...
> it's just that cider is apparently different.
It just occured to me why cider is (maybe) different. In wines, there's
not so much malic acid (maybe 10 or 20%) but lots of tartaric. So
there's less activity by lactobacilli overall, compared to a cider where
90% of the acid is malic. So simplistically, the lactics in cider are
around for a lot longer than in wine and have much more work to do.
Maybe that's why they contribute significantly to the spicey or farmyard
aroma of a good cider, and we don't have to invoke or encourage Brett
infection to get what we need!
The above is pure conjecture. I offer no evidence other than that it
seems reasonable!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: French cider
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 21:37:29 +0100
Mike Thomas asked:
> On the home brewed cider front my interest is in making the sparkling or
> petillant varieties that they make in France, I had some in Caen once
> and it was great. Any suggestions on how to make this style of cider
> would be gratefully received.
Mike, there was a long debate about this and the associated topic of
'keeving' here on CD some months back. There is a bit on my website
about it but if you want to check out some more then have a look through
the CD archives.
The key things needed to make French cider are:
- -Low nitrogen fruit
- -Very slow fermentation (hence keeving, refrigeration and centrifugation
or possibly all 3)
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1069, 24 August 2003
From: "Stevan Vaughan" <svaughan@fincounsel.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:42:29 -0400
Subject: How I Got My Cider Orchard
From: mkiley <mkiley@gwi.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2003 07:28:08 -0400
Michael writes:
>We got two dozen varieties on five different root stocks and have only lost
>two trees so far. Deer are going to be a problem and I'm struggling with
>the options. Any suggestions on the most cost effective way to keep them
>out would be appreciated. Electric fencing would seem the best way except
>that I'm in Georgia for the whole winter and would be unable to keep an eye
>on it. Thus I need a passive system. Just the posts are going to cost as
>much as the mulch and irrigation combined. Eliot Coleman suggests fine
>landscape netting, saying that it is the cheapest way to keep out deer, does
>any one know anything about this?
I have a much smaller orchard 28 trees (23 from Jim Cummins), here in SW
Ohio, and I hung a half bar of Old Spice deodorant soap on each of my
trees and that has worked great so far. It seems to last about 6
months. I actually planted my trees last fall and after two weeks had a
deer problem...tried this approach and am only finding now I am getting
nips again and replaced my soap this past weekend for the fall and
winter. It is a bit time consuming, but cheap!
Steve
Stevan M. Vaughan, CFS
President, FCI
937.439.4595
937.439.4813 fax
------------------------------
Subject: Garbage Disposals
From: "Stefan Berggren" <yeastfarmer@hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:57:29 -0500
Fellow Cidernarians...
I have just set up my press and apple mill (3/4 horse ISE) and
have a question about keeping the motor cool. I have used
it twice (in 95 degree weather) with early apples (williams Pride,
Whitney crab- which are smaller and harder than the pride) & have
experienced the motor shutting off after 20 minutes. I have
been quartering the apples and adding them slowly but still
the motor trips when it gets too hot. I have now set up a
cider juice drip that flows into the throat, when grinding
to make milliing easier on the motor. Does anyone else have
any advice as to keeping the motor cool when milling? Perhaps
a glycol jacket around the engine casing? Milling slower? I have
also thought about alternating with another disposal unit. When
one trips, I would simply hop over to the other grinder until the
one has cooled down. Are there other inexpensive apple mills or
plans to make mills/parts out there? Otherwise I have been
happy with the system (yields of 3.5-3.75 gallons per bushel).
Any advice is greatly appreciated....
------------------------------
Subject: Brettanomyces/Lactobacillus; British origin of Brettanomyces
From: apte@parc.com
Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:24:30 PDT
Andrew Lea discussed Brett infections in winemaking.
As a brewer, I work with Brett constantly. Pure cultures of Brett are
available that have been selected for flavor--to produce a sharp, acidic
flavor with a minimum of urine/mousiness. However, in a well attenuated, dry
ale, its possible to control Brett-derived flavor intensity. For example, one
ale is fermented and conditioned with S. cerevisiae. It is then filtered and
Brett and priming sugar are added at bottling. It results in a hint of flavor
(priming at the rate of 0.5 Balling). Orval is a classic ale with a controlled
Brett flavor. Brett generally has complex nutritional requirements--it grows
much better in beverages stored in wood.
Mark Beck asked about Trappist yeast. This is S. cerevisiae and should make
an excellent cider--I've read of several who have tried it. Trappist ales to
not generally use Brett, only Lambic and Oud Bruin (which are not abbey beers).
Finally, Brettanomyces was first isolated in BRITISH ale. I don't have
the reference in front of me, but it was a Belgian desire to emulate the
characteristic English beer of the 1800s that led to its discovery. Quality
British ale before WWI was generally >8abv, aged for years, and well infected
with Brett and Lacto. The Belgians named it Brettanomyces ("British fungus")
out of respect for England's preeminance in brewing (at the time).
raj
------------------------------
Subject: Deer Fencing
From: "chris horn" <agent_strangelove@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 27 Aug 2003 09:53:29 -0700
The question was raised in the last cider digest as to easy, cheap,
effective deer repellent?. There is none?. The only way that you are going
to stop deer is to fence. Both my father I and have tried a number of
things over the years to keep deer from grazing on apples. My father and I
have tried human hair, soap, and a number of repellants (sulfur based BGR,
as well as capsaicin based ones). There have been folks that have gotten
lion dung from the local zoos but the deer grow used to that smell and no
longer fear it. Some of the vineyard owners in here in Oregon have has some
success with "Hot Sauce Animal Repellent" (by Miller Chemical & Fertilizer
Hanover PA (717) 632-8921) but that requires you directly apply to foliage
that you don't want eaten. It was also more than I was willing to spend for
just my home orchard.
If you (or anyone on this list) are interested, I have electronic drawings
(AutoCAD) of the fencing that I put in around a 1/2 acre that I started my
orchard in. The local county wanted me to get a building permit so I played
their game and made full drawings (I'm a registered mechanical engineer) and
material list of what I was going to do. The specifications were to met or
exceed state game department guidelines. So if any one would like a copy of
the drawings I did for my fence so you can tweak them for your needs, let me
know. Or if you would like to whip up a drawing for you let me know. For
reference, it cost me about $900 for materials to fence in 1/2 acre with an
80? tall fence.
Chris Horn
Scappoose Oregon
'In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people
very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.'
Douglas Adams
------------------------------
Subject: Perry Rootstocks?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2003 23:23:11 +1000
G'day All,
Just about to grab some perry scion wood [Gin, Green Horse, Moorcroft and
Yellow Huffcap] here in Oz before spring has sprung, and was seeking
opinions on suitable rootstocks for perry pears.
Is it a given that nearly all "traditional" perry pears i.e. Rock, Huffcap
etc are Pyrus nivalis. Do they graft well onto any pyrus stock?
Thankyou for your advice
Cheers
MarkEinOZ
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End of Cider Digest #1070
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