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Cider Digest #1025
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1025, 28 February 2003
Cider Digest #1025 28 February 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider Apples ("Cameron Lyons")
RE: Competitions ("McGonegal, Charles")
keeving in the OED (eli+@cs.cmu.edu)
Apple scab management, pH and sulfites ("Jason MacArthur")
Cider Apple: Harrison ("Sgroppino Farms")
cider digest ("Thomas Bashista, Sky Line")
Pasteurization ruined my cider (Fred L Johnson)
Re: Pasteurization ruined my cider (Fred L Johnson)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Cider Apples
From: "Cameron Lyons" <lyonsc@agr.gc.ca>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:22:07 -0500
My question is reguarding the use of North American desert varieties of
apples for hard cider production. I am starting a small fruit winery on
our farm in southern Ontario, Canada and I have an abundance of McIntosh,
Gala, Idared, Fuji, Red Del., Golden Del., Empire, Mutsu, Jonagold and a
few others. I have read many articles on the digest promoting English
Cider apples, but I do not yet have access to these. Does anyone have any
experience using these varieties on a commercial scale (2000-10,000
gallons/year)? Is there any process or additives I can use to increase my
success with these varieties (adding crab apples, grape tannin, etc.)?
Also, I am trying to attain a sparkling, semi-sweet cider by adding
concentrated sweet cider to my dry blend before bottling in champagne
bottles, and then pasteurizing when I feel enough carbonation is realized.
Does heat affect the taste of the cider significantly? Are there any
other economical strategies of achieving the result I require, like using
a pressure vessel to naturaly carbonate and using a sterile filter at
bottling?
Thank you very much, I have learned so much from this digest!
Cameron Lyons
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Competitions
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 07:08:23 -0600
Lee Elliot writes:
Have not heard competitions talked about much on the digest. Any interest
here? Lee Elliott Apple
Hill Orchard. Winchester. Illinois
Good morning Lee,
There are many wine and beer amateur competitions. Both usually host some
kind of cider/apple wine competition. Their usefulness as a measure of
just how good your cider is, or as a way to get feedback, is limited.
Most send you some kind of judging report - but judges just don't write
much. Usually 1 out of 4 or 5 will write a comment about flavor or aroma
- - but often just one or the other - not both. It seems like about 1 out
of 4 judges was tasting a different wine while marking down comments on
your form - they just don't match the other judges. Lastly, judges are
usually very expectation driven - which means that you may get bad marks
becase your cider doesn't line up with what _they_ think a cider should
be. And few are cider fans.
All that said, I enter a few each year. I like getting medals - they look
pretty on the wall :-) And I find that, by and large, the ciders I think
are better get higher ranking, and the ones I think are weak get lower
ones. Except for my St. Ed's Pippin/Keepsake blend - the anise note
really throws them off :-)
The main wine competitions open to amateurs are:
American Wine Society - but you have to be a member
Cellermasters - out of California
Indy International - at the Indiana State Fair.
HWBTA - Hone Wine and Beer Making trade Association - you're supposed to
go though your local brewing supply store to enter.
They are typically $10-20 an entry.
There are several annual mead/cider tastings that aren't formal
competitions, so you have to be there to get feedback. Among these, I
would put the Planet Buzz fest in Chicago and the Cider Day fest in
Colrain, MA. Planet Buzz needs more knowledgable cider tasters, but
really wants to attract more interest outside mead. Cider Day seems well
attended by more 'cidery' folks. The main session in each is for
"professional" outfits. I put that in quotes because I count as 'pro'-
but haven't actually gotten paid for my efforts yet :-) But at both,
there are informal sessions where you can share your efforts with other
enthusiasts. There are a couple others I have business cards for - but
not handy.
I'm sure that some of the national level home brewing competitions have a
cider catagory - but I'm not familiar with them.
I would have to say, In My Humble Opinion, that there is not a _good_
competition for cidermakers in the US at this time. I know winery owners
who would say that there aren't any _good_ competitions for wine, period.
I hold out the hope that entering competitions can at least be fun - if
not very informative. The nature and characters that go into making a
_good_ competition - or even a fun one - get into topics of religion.
traffic on the Digest would really shoot up were we to open up that can of
worms :-)
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery.
------------------------------
Subject: keeving in the OED
From: eli+@cs.cmu.edu
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 19:52:02 -0500 (EST)
Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
> The OED does not seem to recognise its use by cidermakers as a _verb_.
> Shame on them! I wonder how we remedy this??
They should be glad to hear. See the "how to contribute" and
"submission form" links on http://www.oed.com/public/readers/
- --
Eli Brandt | eli+@cs.cmu.edu | http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~eli/
(finished Ph.D., woohoo; looking for good work in the Seattle area)
------------------------------
Subject: Apple scab management, pH and sulfites
From: "Jason MacArthur" <jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 26 Feb 2003 20:10:52 -0500
I am planting a small orchard of cider apples this year, here in humid
New England. Two of the varieties I am planting are described by the
nursery as "moderately scab susceptible." As I research scab management I
come across a great deal of conflicting information, from 'Raking and
burning leaves in the fall will be adequate to control scab on a small
scale' to 'Not spraying regularly for scab from the beginning of the
season until mid-June will cripple your trees and leave you with horrible
tasting cider." I am curious what other growers/ciderists have found,
particularly back yard growers in the northeast. What am I getting myself
into?
My other question refers to the realtionship between pH and added
sulfites. I understand that the amount of sulfites needed to control the
major cider problems decreases as pH decreases, but do those extra sulfites
at lower pH's become merely redundant or do they increase in efficacy,
killing a greater and greater variety of organisms present in cider? I am
wondering because none of my ciders seem to be undergoing a malolactic
fermentation. Not knowing the pH I added sulfites to the tune of 75ppm at
the start of fermentation and none at bottling time. Although I still don't
know the pH I now know that the ciders are very acidic (around .08% total
acidity expressed as malic acid) and I am wondering if there is any chance
that the beasties who would perform a malolactic fermentation are still
alive. Any thoughts on this?
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Apple: Harrison
From: "Sgroppino Farms" <sgroppino@sgroppino.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 10:20:26 -0500
Cider Fanatics:
I'm new to the list and joined because I'm in the early stages of
adding a home orchard to an existing organic garlic farm. I'm curious
if any list members can offer any information about a cider apple
cultivar known as Harrison. I'm having a few trees of it grafted after
having read that it was commonly blended with Graniwinkle, which I'm
also going to be growing. I can't find any information regarding the
taste characteristics of Harrison, or for that matter whether or not
it's worth growing. I'd also very much be interested in hearing of
people's own personal favorites for cider apples. Is there a definitive
guide to cider apples?
Any/all information very much appreciated.
John A Gasbarre
Sgroppino Farms
Vinalhaven Island, Maine
sgroppino@sgroppino.com
USDA Zone 5
------------------------------
Subject: cider digest
From: "Thomas Bashista, Sky Line" <skyline@crocker.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 12:22:24 -0500
In response to Jason MacArthur's Feb 24 comment regarding acidity,
"My ciders are good this year- high alcohol with a great deal of
character, but also very high acidity."
Acidity seemed to be a trait of my ciders which I felt could be "smoothed
out". Being a fourth generation farm hand on our family orchard, I have
been gathering tips and tricks from old timers who started making cider with
their elders. We have probably all heard of some old guy who used to throw
an old steak in the cider barrel with lots of sugar and raisins in order to
make a potent "traditional" New England cider. I stayed away from the red
meat ingredients but have used raisins on many batches. There are concord
grapes growing wildly on the property and I figured if the raisins work well
in the cider, why not the grapes. Results, the smoothest batches of cider I
have ever made. I have been saving the bloated raisins to use for more than
one batch, with very good results,(the grapes are long gone from the vine
since winter is well upon us)
Not traditional perhaps, but I like it.
Tom Bashista
Southampton, Massachusetts
------------------------------
Subject: Pasteurization ruined my cider
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson@portbridge.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:18:31 -0500
I have tried unsuccessfully to maintain sweetness in my sparkling ciders
conditioned in the bottle. Whenever I try to achieve good carbonation, I
prime the cider and bottle it. It comes out highly carbonated by design, but
my wife would enjoy some that is a little off dry. I thought I would try the
technique of pasteurizing the cider in the bottle after it has had
opportunity to achieve the proper carbonation but before all the fermentable
sugars have been consumed. I posted here a while back asking for advice on
doing this.
Well, I carefully primed my last batch, bottled the primed cider, and
patiently waited for the yeast to do its thing. They cider was very clear as
usual going into the bottles since the yeast had settled out nicely before
bottling. Several days went by before signs of fermentation began to show.
A week went by and the cider began to show some carbonation. I opened a
bottle every day until it was perfectly carbonated, 10 days after bottling.
By this time the yeast had obviously grown and had turned the cider cloudy
as it always does. If I were to let the cider continue to condition a this
point, the yeast would complete the fermentation, flocculate, and settle on
the bottom of the bottle. At this point, I pasteurized the entire batch by
placing the bottles into a large kettle of water heated on the stove top to
160 F. I used a blank open bottle of water with a thermometer in it to
monitor the heating of the other bottles. When the bottles reached 160 F, I
removed the bottles and stored them away to wait for the yeast to settle
out.
The yeast (or what's left of them) have never settled out. In fact they
probably have lysed. I'm stuck with very yeasty, ugly, murky mess. The
cider now tastes like yeast and I'm about to throw it out! How is this
process supposed to work?
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Pasteurization ruined my cider
From: Fred L Johnson <FLJohnson@portbridge.com>
Date: Fri, 28 Feb 2003 20:39:01 -0500
Correction to my recent post regarding pasteurization of cider. I
pasteurized at 150 F, not 160 F as I stated before.
- --
Fred L. Johnson
Apex, North Carolina, USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1025
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