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Cider Digest #1064
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Subject: Cider Digest #1064, 9 August 2003
Cider Digest #1064 9 August 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Traditional New England Cider ("Terry Maloney")
Cider by hand ("McGonegal, Charles")
Freezing apples or juice ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: Cider Digest #1063, 8 August 2003 (Terry and Julie Bradshaw)
Re: Metcalf's again (Terry and Julie Bradshaw)
real cider (breen@fedcoseeds.com)
RE: Cider Digest ("Stevan Vaughan")
Real vs. Artisanal vs. whatever ("Gary Awdey")
you say artisan, I say artesian (mkiley)
Re: homeade presses & mills ("squeeze")
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Subject: Traditional New England Cider
From: "Terry Maloney" <terry@westcountycider.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:56:46 -0400
There have been several mentions in recent digests of Traditional New
England Cider as having sugar or raisins added. Our neighbors here in
Western Massachusetts who have been making hard cider from generation to
generation, "the way they always have", don't add anything. And when
you think about it, sugar and raisins were luxury items until the late
1800's-- not something that would be used by a frugal Yankee. I think
that New England Cider traditionally was made from fresh pressed
applejuice without sweetening. There might have been sugar added
starting in the mid 20th century, but not much before then, and not in
Traditional New England Cider.
Terry Maloney
West County Cider
Colrain, Massachusetts
www.westcountycider.com
------------------------------
Subject: Cider by hand
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:35:10 -0500
DD writes >>Third, even "artisan" isn't a very good description for
cider-making, as it's not "by hand" nor is it a matter of manual skill or
dexterity.
Dick, you ought to try 'a la vollee' disgorging sometime. That's 'on the
fly', and is done without freezing the neck of the bottle. Very low-tech,
but very dependent on eye-hand coordination. Much fun - but messy :-)
When I have tried to use the word 'artisanal', I've had people think I mean
'artesianal' - and our well is has a pump, just like most.
'Craft' or 'traditional' might be good. At least most beer-folk know what
you mean by 'craft beer'. I don't know that any wine-folk use an equivalent
term, except maybe 'small producer'
Charles McGonegal
------------------------------
Subject: Freezing apples or juice
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 09:55:43 -0500
Scott Smith writes >> There is a long tradition of freezing cider
after fermenting (applejack), and of freezing grapes before fermenting
(eiswein), but no tradition of freezing cider before fermenting.
In my area (Wisconsin), there _is_ a long tradition letting apple freeze on
the tree for a couple of freeze/thaw cycles before pressing (for sweet
cider). It's not practiced very often because it makes the apples _very_
slippery to press. But the end result is highly admired.
Charles McGonegal
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1063, 8 August 2003
From: Terry and Julie Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:01:45 -0400
How about "Metcalf's" from North River Winery, in Jacksonville, VT? It's
been quite awhile since I've tried it, but given the varieties they use,
generally Mac, Russett, Baldwin, etc, and their use of sugar adjuncts, I'd
say it might fit the bill. Maybe?
TB
At 08:08 AM 8/8/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>There's been some discussion of "New England style" cider. I would
>certainly agree that New England cider is a traditional style, but the
>fact is I don't know of any commercial producers that are making it!
>I've made it myself, and other amateurs produce it too, but the Slow
>Food Ark will recognize only commercial products. If there's a
>well-made New England style cider being made out there for sale, we'd
>certainly consider it.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Metcalf's again
From: Terry and Julie Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2003 11:10:06 -0400
Sorry to post about this twice in one digest. Metcalf's is certainly not
traditional English cider, maybe more like New England.
TB
At 08:08 AM 8/8/2003 -0600, you wrote:
>I spent a few days in Vermont last week, and I came
>across a bottle of Metcalfe's Cider. Since they claim
>to be a "traditional English cider," I picked up a
>bottle and brought it home. I'm very curious to find
>out what a "real" cider tastes like. I don't see any
>in the stores near me, and I can't find any true cider
>making apples either.
>
>So what is the consensus of the experts. Is this a
>traditional English cider or close to it?
------------------------------
Subject: real cider
From: breen@fedcoseeds.com
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 11:38:44 -0500
Fellow Cider Folks,
By no means was my intention to name New England as THE american cider
style. More just what I've known thus far. Every region in America has a
unique tradition, even if just due to the varietal content. This regional
difference, although not available commercially, might be worth preserving
and rediscovering. I'll go quietly into the night. I apologize for an overly
enthusiastic two cents, and duly admire the efforts of others to bring cider
whereever out of its grave.
Heron Breen
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest
From: "Stevan Vaughan" <svaughan@fincounsel.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2003 16:09:24 -0400
Help!
I began a vintage cider orchard of about 25 trees last year, but have a
couple of mature trees to begin experimenting with fermenting this fall.
I have a press already and have made sweet cider before.
Now I need to know what I need to buy next. I looked at some starter
beer/wine kits at Northern Brewer, but they don't seem exactly suited
for cider. I do have a book and have read Andrew's website a number of
times, but I honestly still don't know where to begin!
Any direction is greatly appreciated.
Steve
Stevan M. Vaughan, CFS
President, FCI
937.439.4595
937.439.4813 fax
------------------------------
Subject: Real vs. Artisanal vs. whatever
From: "Gary Awdey" <gawdey@att.net>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 06:48:49 -0400
I agree that "real" is an unsatisfactory adjective to describe cider
because of the baggage it carries from CAMRA in defining a beverage
containing live yeast, plus even if you're not a mathematician it sounds
like the alternative is imaginary or perhaps entirely lacking apple in
any form. Likewise, ANY one-word adjective that meets Slow Food's
targeted requirements (particularly the seasonal requirement) would
exclude ciders made from concentrate or (I suppose) out-of-season
machine-frozen un-concentrated sweet cider as ingredients. Now the
adjective "artisanal" is getting the thumbs down in favor of it's
equivalent noun (and the confusion generated will be so severe some of
us will soon be drinking apple brandy purely for
medicinal...sorry...medicine use). "Hand crafted" is ridiculous because
there aren't many folks who can weave a presscloth on a loom or make
their own oak barrels, and the art/science of blending apples is more of
a mental discipline than practiced manual dexterity. "Craft Cider"
sounds good to me, but then there's that hint of unscrupulous cunning in
the word because of the sibling form of the word, "crafty." Any takers
for "Artsy Fartsy" or "Hoity Toity?" "Kickass?" (Hopefully I'm not
unknowingly infringing on exisiting trademarks here.)
A question keeps nagging at me: Why does it matter what you call it?
Why can't we just call it cider? (Yes, drop the "hard" since percent
alcohol is given on the label anyway, and reclaim the long-lost usage of
the word.) Everything else can be listed as an aside and every group
can create new categories on the second Thursday of every month based on
what they think is important. Unless there are legally binding
definitions some producers will continually strive to bend the meanings
for marketing purposes. Any agreement on shortened designations for
categories of cider would tend to be fleeting. If the various criteria
really do matter, why not just insist on putting lots of information on
the label as is common practice for other food items? Pasturized or
unpasturized juice on list of ingredients. "Bottle pasturized" when
that is the case, "Batch Pasturized" (or something equivalent) when that
is the case. Sulfited or unsulfited (heck, why not even include how
much and at what stage of the process?). Water added...or water
removed (by evaporation, by reverse osmosis or whatever) when slight
(say up to 10%) adjustments are made to control the fermentation.
"Contains apple juice from concentrate" on the ingredients list when
that is the case. Type (and heck, even amount) of natural or artificial
sweetener when appropriate (including "Contains 10 g/L sugar from beets"
or "pure cane sugar" or whatever happens to be the case). "Made from
locally grown apples" when locality is the same for growing as it is for
fermentation and that locality is indicated. Add the word "organic"
when the hurdles for appropriate use of that word are cleared. Indicate
targeted regional style when that is significant.
Some of this information is required or tightly regulated on labels and
some is not. Until more descriptive regulatory standardization in
labeling is achieved why not volunteer more information on the bottle
than is required and let the consumer decide if it's important or not.
If the cidermakers and/or regulatory agencies believe the details are
important and the label contains them then the consumers who care will
be able to make comparisons before purchasing and/or tasting.
Gary Awdey
Eden Hill Cidery (that's the name I've staked out, and yes it is on a
hill in Eden, NY)
------------------------------
Subject: you say artisan, I say artesian
From: mkiley <mkiley@gwi.net>
Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2003 07:22:53 -0400
I once bought a craft made bottle of mezcal with particularly entertaining
copy in which the artisan described his product as artesian. Ever since
I've had the idea of a place where fine aged mezcal bubbled from the ground.
Artesian cider, of course, would be a wonderful concept.
Dishbe, (Zapotec for salud!, accent on the second syllable)
Michael Kiley
------------------------------
Subject: Re: homeade presses & mills
From: "squeeze" <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 10:14:45 -0700
Terence inquired about press equipt - from the top: not sure what you mean
by "knife mill", but SMASHING is what's required, not cutting, and the best
machine is what's called a hammermill shredder [for juicing also called a
crusher, breaker or apple mill], as per plans in the AgCan booklet on my
website, <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/ag-can/ag-book.htm#4> - don't use
sharpened hammers, as that's very counter productive. over time the
"blades" sharpen themselves and must be either turned around or
re-flattened [w/ a hammer :-)]
next, more than about 8-9 layers will be trouble keeping in one place
unless you use a modified basket arrangement to contain the stack - other
racks will be spares, as w/ wood racks you'll break some eventually, and
find some increasingly hard to clean - count on replacing wood racks w/ HMD
polyprop in time. 28" _is_ a bit large, but could be used w/ cheeses that
don't cover the whole area - my 60 ton 2 ram press
<http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/pics-pg/press.html> has a tray about 30" and
the cheese form I made keeps the cheeses a couple inches smaller than the
24" racks - also I never use more than about 40 tons of pressure, as that
just embeds the pulp in the cloths and pushes the softer material right
thru the cloth - cheeses are about 3" thick to start about 1.5 when done.
I think you'll find that a press that will do 30+ gal per run won't do well
w/ as little as 5-10 gal - I do it by pressing the small quantities on top
of a few previously pressed out cheeses, otherwise you need a huge throw on
the rams, or you're putting full pressure on them while fully extended.
also, if you can't get 3+ gal per bushel, you're wasting fruit and time -
standards w/ powered equipt traditionally have been 1 US gal/ 15# max, and
I expect 1US gal per 12+ # [actually 1 liter per +/- 3.25#]
also re Fellenz's suggestion in the next Digest that the rams be under the
press, there are presses made that way, but requires much better
engineering and construction to lift the whole press tray, and isn't done
for fear of contamination, which is highly unlikely, but for ease and speed
of loading - 2 trays are on a short track and shuttle back and forth into
the press so the stack can be built outside the press and while the press
is working. the only chance of contamination from a well made hydraulic
system is from catastrophic failure - hasn't happened here in 20 years.
further, Chad's friend who "doesn't have the time to mill the apples" must
be doing it w/ a paring knife and a baby food grinder - see the apple mill
referenced above - this machine will rend apples to chunky apple sauce as
fast as you can pour them in - mine [conveyor fed] will handle enough to
get ahead of me as I build the layers on the press cart - hundreds of
pounds in mere minutes. I can't imagine a 100 gal basket press - that
would have to have a huge basket, and would be pretty ineffective even on
crushed apples - maybe 100 gal per hour, or ? - trying to press whole
apples would be the waste of time, when a couple hundred $$ would solve
the milling "problem".
in the "bad ol days" it was advised to let the apples sit "to mellow", but
my take on that is that the human powered equipment they had when that plan
was developed couldn't handle hard fresh apples well, and older apples are
softer apples. also, adding apple solids to the ferment will only cause
more filtration work, or require re-pressing, which is difficult w/
fermented pulp - proper "milling" is the key to extracting the greatest
amount of vital and volitile components
hope this helps, and if anyone wants more info or better pics,
feel free to e-me anytime
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
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End of Cider Digest #1064
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