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Cider Digest #1028
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Subject: Cider Digest #1028, 15 March 2003
Cider Digest #1028 15 March 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
cider trees (Thomas Beckett)
taliaferro crab (Thomas Beckett)
CD 1027 > Pear Choices ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: American apples for cider (Dick Dunn)
Local cider varieties. ("Murdo Laird")
Acidity &MLF (Tim Bray)
re: Bartlett pears in cider (Michael Kiley)
Re: Interesting Perry crush day / Pear choices (Ross McKay)
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Subject: cider trees
From: Thomas Beckett <thomas@tbeckett.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:24:41 -0500
This is my first post to the Cider Digest. I have been enjoying
reading everyone's contributions for more than a month.
I appreciate Andrew Lea's post:
> Hear, hear! I have long thought there must be mileage in developing
> or rediscovering specific North American cider cultivars rather than
> just following what we Europeans happen to have done. Just because it
> suits us doesn't mean it will necessarily suit you!
>
> Forget you ever heard of Tremletts Bitter or Kingston Black, and all
> power to your collective elbows!! Hey Ho for the Harrison and its
> kin!
I have decided to make a project of developing a good cider from apples
grown here in North Carolina. That would include both heirloom
varieties and the newer cultivars. I have been reading up on the
subject and have developed a list of suitable cider apples, which I will
share here.
The first list are the heirloom varieties:
American Golden Russet
Blacktwig
Calvin
Crow Egg
Esopus Spitzenberg
Gilpin
Golden Russet
Golden Sweeting
Gravenstein
Grimes Golden
Hewe's Crab
Honey Cider
Hoover
Horse
Kinnaird's Choice
King Tom
Lacy
Lady
Limbertwig, Old Fashion
Limbertwig, Royal -- too many Limbertwigs to choose from
Magnum Bonum
Maiden's Blush
Muskmelon Sweet
Newtown Pippin
Red Astrachan
Roxbury Russet
Smith's Cider
Smokehouse
Sour June
Vandevere
Virginia Spice/Spice
Winesap, Old Fashion
Yankee Sweet
Yates
The second list are the current commercial varieties grown here:
Stayman
Jonagold
Red Delicious
Mutsu/Crispin
Golden Delicious
Jonathan
And then a few more crabs:
Dolgo Crab
Transcendant Crab
Wickson Crab
The crabs apparently have a higher tannin content than most other North
American types.
These lists are by no means exclusive, and there may be apples I ahve
missed. I would welcome all suggestions. I have all this in a
spreadsheet with more info. I'm trying to categorize them by sugar,
acid and tannin content. This year I hope to gather samples of as many
of these as possible to assay for those three factors. (If I can pull
it off, I'll be happy to share the data publicly.)
Creighton Lee Calhoun's /Old Southern Apples/ is a great resource for
the heirloom varieties. I'm not sure it the Crow Egg (not "Crow's Egg")
counts as an Old Southern. It is very easy to get caught up in the
British/European cider apple varieties because there is so much more
cider-specific information about them. But I do believe that great
ciders are possible with American apples, too. Hope to be making some
myself someday.
Hope y'all find this a worthwhile contribution. I'll look forward to
any feedback y'all have.
Thomas Beckett
Durham, North Carolina
------------------------------
Subject: taliaferro crab
From: Thomas Beckett <thomas@tbeckett.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Mar 2003 23:30:11 -0500
Also on the subject of Old Southern Apples, I am intrigued by the
Taliaferro apple, purportedly a favorite of Jefferson's for cider. It
was believed to be extinct, but Frank Browning's book and another source
or two I've seen -- all from about 1996 -- reported the possible
rediscovery of a tree on a farm in the Virginia highlands. Mr. Buford
was supposedly checking it out. I haven't been able to find any more
recent information.
Does anyone know if that one tree turned out to be true Taliaferro?
Thanks!
------------------------------
Subject: CD 1027 > Pear Choices
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 07:52:43 -0600
Mark,
I've used Bartlett for perry before. I think it works nicely in a more
fruity/floral style. I find the ones we get here in Chicago to be a bit low
in sugar.
A couple of notes:
1) Pears are reputed to be hard to press. I haven't had trouble, but I
grind them when they are still a bit hard.
2) My perry with Bartlett turned purple. Kind of a light lavender. No
kidding. I read a paper a few years ago, maybe out of WSU, that noted the
same pigment instability.
I haven't tried to ferment asian pears. They all taste like a grape 'jolly
rancher' to me, and I thought it would be a bit overpowering in a wine.
Charles
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: American apples for cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 13 Mar 2003 19:35:50 -0700 (MST)
Andrew Lea wrote (in response to a post from "Charlotte"):
> Hear, hear! I have long thought there must be mileage in developing or
> rediscovering specific North American cider cultivars rather than just
> following what we Europeans happen to have done. Just because it suits
> us doesn't mean it will necessarily suit you!
Absolutely.
There is an almost unthinking obeisance to European--in fact, specifically
southwestern English--cider apple choices in the US. These are the varieties
often designated as "vintage", the common current definition of that term
being apples which produce a juice balanced enough to make a good single-
varietal cider.
(As a side note: I am collecting what are proclaimed to be authoritative
lists of English vintage cider apples. I've got a handful; the lists so
far range in length from 1 to 34 entries!)
There's nothing wrong with including the apples from the European lists, as
a starting point. The sin is in excluding some of the excellent American
varieties, as if they were somehow second-rate colonials.
> Forget you ever heard of Tremletts Bitter...
It's not clear we have heard of it anyway...there's apparently significant
evidence that the "Tremlett's Bitter" commonly available in the US is not
the same as the UK variety.
>...or Kingston Black,...
Now hold on a minute there, you "silly English person"! (Oops, wrong
movie.)
Back away from the Kingston Black...slowly...and nobody gets hurt. (Oops,
wrong movie again.)
To the point: I can give Tremlett's a miss, except as a blending apple,
and even then there are other ways to get the same contribution. (I do
have a few trees of it, though.) However, KB gives such a distinctive
character that there is *no*way* I'm going to abandon it! That's
especially after nursing my trees along in a difficult climate...and any
of you who've tried to work with KB even in a favorable climate have an
idea of the problem.
>...and all
> power to your collective elbows!! Hey Ho for the Harrison and its kin!
Actually, Andrew and I have batted this about a bit in the past. I offered
the (oxymoron) term "new tradition" for what we're trying to do in the US.
We've got a LOT of potential apples for cider. We've also got a LOT of
variety in weather and climate to deal with.
My objection to Andrew's statement is only that I don't think we should
discard any of the older European varieties *until* we've truly concluded
that they won't do well here. We've started to gather some evidence, but
there's really surprisingly little (or else it's not easily available).
But, for example, Stoke Red seems to have a serious requirement for winter
chill...I've got some trees from Tim Bray (approximately Mendocino area)
because they weren't thriving in his environment. For another example,
Kingston Black seems adaptable on climate (equally difficult in various
climates!) and able to produce its distinctive character, but I've had
several reports and also seen it myself that the fruit matures a month or
more earlier in various places in the US than in the UK. (If I didn't have
a preponderance of evidence to the contrary, I would have guessed that the
English and US KB's were different. But no...it's too distinctive in too
many ways.)
I think the idea we in the US want is to pick up the best of the English
apples as candidates, evaluate them, and add in our own varieties. Keep in
mind that the US has some venerable varieties, some of them older than the
English varieties that cider sophomores want to bless.
On a trip to England a few years back, I took an American cider from West
County (Colrain, MA; Terry/Judith Maloney) done in a sort-of-English dry/
still style. We tasted it alongside some English ciders, and it was a
standout in terms of body and a different character. After some discussion
(which continued after we were back in the US) the suggestion was that the
unusual (in a good sense) character was due to the russets in the blend.
I've since been told and found other reasons to think that russets tend to
add a particular rich character and body to a cider. I'm talking about
Roxbury and Golden Russet. The Roxbury is a classic American apple (early
17th century!).
So one of my little fantasies is to make a cider blended from Roxbury
Russet and Kingston Black. That, it seems to me, would be not only the
essence of developing a "new tradition" but could blend old- and new-world
apples in a very positive way. If anybody's already tried this, or does
try it, I'd love to hear how it works out.
_ _ _ _ _
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Local cider varieties.
From: "Murdo Laird" <murdo@murdos.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 08:41:29 -0800
I would like to express my appreciation for the sentiments voiced on the
Digest recently by Charlotte, and then Andrew, in regard to the
development and or discovery of cider varieties originating in North
America. But I would like to stretch this idea a little further and, at
the risk of stating the obvious, suggest that what we all need to
develop, wherever we are in the world, is of course a selection of
locally proven cider cultivars. By that I mean existing types chosen
for their local performance (which requires lengthy ongoing
experimentation) as well as "native" sports and seedlings judiciously
propagated.
If this sounds like a lot of work, remember that all the "standard"
cider varieties that now exist, only do so because somebody chose them
in this way. Why should we all not continue this work?
It seems to me that although it may be a worthwhile endeavor to attempt
to produce, let's say, a version of a Normandy cider on this continent
by growing only apples developed in that part of the world, this is only
one approach. No matter how successful you may be at this you are, by
choice, binding yourself with an orthodoxy which is alien to the place
you live in. This in fact may be your point, you may want to "prove"
that Norman cider can be made in America. That's fine, but it is
limiting; you're relying on varietal choices frozen in time more than a
hundred years ago in a totally different place.
Just before I planted my orchard in 1997 I visited two English
cidermakers one in Herefordshire, and one in Somerset. Each told me
that the other's region could not produce the cider theirs could because
they "didn't have the apples we have". As they told me this the two men
were standing about seventy-five miles apart, and I thought they were
crazy. But they were serious, and I would posit now that they were
right.
Along the same lines, try finding Foxwhelp for example in "A Somerset
Pomona"; it's not there because it's from Herefordshire (or possibly
Gloucestershire), it's not there because apple trees producing quality
ciders were selected because they thrived, bore well, required minimal
care or whatever in a specific location. And within that list I'm
willing to bet that, given the hardships of the times, the minimal care
factor was a big one; the most persistent and hardiest seedlings or
sports, which produced useful fruit regardless of human neglect, would
surely have been grafted first.
The same must have been true in early America. The first farmers in
Virginia and then New England planting their (at least partly) seedling
orchards, must have come upon tannic apples which grew well, and some of
them must have known, either from Old World experience or simple trial
and error, that tannin was a desirable ingredient in cider. There
therefore may be journals that record this, or old orchards of these
trees, surrounding ruined farmsteads, buried in woodlots. If we can go
to Kazakhstan to search for genetic material, why not there?
Surely each of us must find the cultivars that work best in our own
orchards. And how will that happen? Well I would say that eventually it
will happen naturally, or we will fail. By fail I mean that this
nascent revival of agrarian cider as a viable, value added, agricultural
product well suited to the small farmer, will falter and then fade away.
That is if we don't pay attention to where we are and what works there,
in the same way that the people of Asturias, Normandy, Somerset, and (we
hope) Virginia did before us, we can not expect to produce the best
product possible and therefore compete with other beverages.
It will I hope, happen "naturally" in my own orchard because of what
seems to me like a somewhat logical progression. Faced with trying to
grow cider apples in an area where there was no record of anyone having
done so before, I planted every apple that had any connection with cider
that I could get my hands on. Now five years later I'm beginning to see
which are going to thrive, bear well, and produce good cider; those that
don't will be top-worked into those that do.
In the meantime I will continue to fruit out wood from old varieties
that have some cider potential together with the most enthusiastic
"griblers" from my compost pile. Now, obviously the next person to try
this in my neighborhood will have an enormous advantage if he or she
chooses to learn from my experience, and in the longer term (when cider
is again a daily drink in America) those that follow us will know what
the two West Country cidermakers knew; they will know what works
locally.
Murdo Laird
Murdo's Farmhouse Cider
Napa Valley, California
<http://murdos.com/> http://murdos.com
------------------------------
Subject: Acidity &MLF
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Mar 2003 21:22:38 -0800
Weeks ago, Jason Macarthur said:
> My ciders are good this year- high alcohol with a great deal of
>character, but also very high acidity.
Mine are, too, including the one made from Russets. Good flavour, I think,
but overwhelmed by the sharpness. This year I may try some D-47 yeast.
> Although I don't dislike this, I
>would like to encourage them to undergo a malolactic fermentation. Besides
>leaving them on their lees, is their any way I can do this on a home cider
>making scale?
If they are still in carboy, you can add a commercial ML culture from a
winemaking supply store. If they are already in bottle (as mine are -
didn't realize how sharp they were!), maybe try keeping them warm for a
couple of months; I understand MLF is facilitated by warm temps, up to 90 F.
Subsequently, Tom Bashista said:
>There are concord
>grapes growing wildly on the property and I figured if the raisins work well
>in the cider, why not the grapes. Results, the smoothest batches of cider I
>have ever made. I have been saving the bloated raisins to use for more than
>one batch, with very good results,
Tom, can you clarify for me- are you using fresh whole grapes from your
wild vines, or homemade raisins from those grapes, or something else? And
are you using a commercial yeast, or spontaneous ferment/wild yeast? Maybe
you're getting a natural MLF.
Cheers,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: re: Bartlett pears in cider
From: Michael Kiley <michael@beeherenow.com>
Date: Sat, 15 Mar 2003 12:27:55 -0500
I've never made pear mead but I've made a lot of cider with pears in it and
it always has so much honey in it that it is rightly more a mead (or cyser)
than a cider.
My first understanding of real cider came from listening to old timers argue
(in Vermont and Maine) about the 'right' mix of apples for a good cider.
Fortunately for me some of these geezers knew a little something and even my
first batches were good enough to make me continue.
One fellow whose advice I liked (and his cider too) said that it was
important to include a bushel of pears in every barrel, figuring around
seventeen to twenty bushels of apples to the barrel. He would use no more
than eight bushels of 'sugar' apples, mostly Macs and Cortlands, and fill
out the rest with seed apples of various kinds chosen by experience and
chance based on what was available in any given year.
I've used that basic formula many times and have put as many as three
bushels of pears in a barrel with excellent results. For some years I had
access to a very productive Bartlett tree of a neighbor who never used the
pears and in the end cut the tree down because he was tired of mowing the
pears ( ! ). I've also been lucky enough to get some little Seckle (sp?)
pears on occasion and have thrown them in too.
While I've made great ciders without any pears I think I know what that old
timer was talking about when he said that adding pears made for a rounder
flavor and I agree with him that absent an ideal mix of apple cultivars (
and how many of us can count on that? ) adding some pears to a batch is a
great way to get a balanced cider. Because of legal rigidity on the
ingredients in commercial alcoholic beverages this kind of multi-species
blending rarely gets done but I'm interested in it, especially for meads. I
don't have much patience for reinheitsgebot-like dictates on what should and
shouldn't be in these things, unless I'm buying them.
Let me add my thanks to our janitor, Dick you're doing a great thing!
Michael Kiley
- --
Gourmet honey direct from the beekeeper.
<http://www.beeherenow.com >
What's so funny about bees, love and understanding?
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Interesting Perry crush day / Pear choices
From: Ross McKay <rosko@zeta.org.au>
Date: Sun, 16 Mar 2003 12:24:41 +1100
G'day
Mark E. spake thus:
>Had a interesting day crushing 2 different fruit types.
>
>Batch 1 was a blend of our own seedling perry pears from 10 different
>trees. Interesting bunch to say the least. [snip]
May I ask, what variety/ies of pears are you growing for your perries?
And Mark Taratoot asks:
>Am I nuts to use Bartlett pears for a pear mead? What about Chojuro?
I'm getting interested in perry, too (and possibly a "pyser" ;) so I'm
also interested in which varieties would be good to make perry from.
I tried eating a couple of pears this weekend to see what flavours were
there, and attempt to guess which ones might make a nice perry. Buerre
Bosc was one variety I tried, it seemed a little "starchy" to me, but
had interesting flavour. The other was Williams, I think also known as
Bartlett, and perhaps also Williams Bon Chretien. This one was much
sweeter and juicier, but retained a good pear flavour still.
I have also seen Packham in the fruit shops, but there weren't any
available when I bought my pears last weekend.
>From experience, can anyone comment on these pears? In the local
markets, the Buerre Bosc, Williams, Packham and Nashi seem to be the
only varieties available to me - is it worth using these for perry,
either singly or blended? It seems to me from my taste tests that either
Williams or Buerre Bosc would produce a nice perry, but it's hard for a
novice like me to tell when the fruit still has sugar there :)
cheers,
Ross.
- --
Ross McKay, WebAware Pty Ltd
"Science changes one funeral at a time" - Harvey Weiss
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1028
*************************
