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Cider Digest #1047
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Subject: Cider Digest #1047, 11 June 2003
Cider Digest #1047 11 June 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Cider Competition ("Drew Zimmerman")
Nitty-gritty competiton details. ("McGonegal, Charles")
Boston Beer Co ("John Howard")
Containers ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Cider Competitions and Tasting Events ("Awdey, Gary")
Re: Boston Beer Co. (Roy Bailey)
(mis)use of competition results (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Cider Competition
From: "Drew Zimmerman" <drewzimmer@attbi.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Jun 2003 20:42:48 -0700
2003 NORTH AMERICAN CIDER COMPETITION
U.S. and Canadian commercial hard cider makers please note:
The Northwest Cider Society will conduct its first hard cider
competition on Saturday, November 8, 2003. Judging will take place at
the WSU Research Station in Mt. Vernon, Washington followed by a tasting
and awards banquet in Seattle.
All hard ciders that are produced and available for purchase in the
United States and/or Canada are eligible. Each entry must include the
equivalent of two 750 ml bottles along with a nominal entry fee, and an
optional donation of four additional bottles for the tasting and dinner.
If you wish to participate in this year's event, please contact me
off-list at drewzimmer@attbi.com by July 1, 2003. Entry forms and
detailed information will be available in August. We are looking
forward to your participation in this unique cider only event.
Drew Zimmerman
NWCS Competition Committee
------------------------------
Subject: Nitty-gritty competiton details.
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 12:27:53 -0500
I find Ben Watson's comments on BBC's 'limited edition' cider very
interesting - it's good to hear that they are trying to make a more 'crafty'
cider - even if most people don't have easy access.
Heck, most people don't have easy access to _my_ little cider. One of the
problems with our distribution system that Gary Awdey noted. Even if
various reforms in the works go through and it gets easier to ship directly
to consumers, it looks like it's going to be tough for micro-cideries to get
into stores - sometimes even when those stores are willing.
Now, to the point at hand. If we are going to aim for better cider
competitions here in the US, and ones that cannot easily be perverted into
marketing for 'industrial cider' (to steal DD's phrase), those of us to
produce craft ciders and those of us deep into the appreciation of said
ciders are going to have to reach some kind of consensus as to what makes a
good competition (or even just forums with tastings - like Cider Day) - so
that we can go out and support good events and spurn deficient ones.
Gary Awdey noted at least a couple ways to control post-event marketing. I
think that the Indy International Wine Comp. uses something like that. I'm
sure that there are more ways. I've seen publications of competition
winners that included the amount produced, too.
But even closer to home, from where I'm sitting, is the discussion of just
what should be allowed in. What kind of categories there are may be a
similar question.
Let us consider exclusions on the grounds of ingredients. Ron Irvine
suggested that only pure _fresh_ juice ciders be considered 'cider' for
competition purposes. My own small batch, methode champenoise cider would
fail that test. Since I market as an apple wine, I chaptalize to a small
degree. It works out to something like 95% juice by volume. As a wine, I
fall under ATF (or now TTB) labeling jurisdiction - I don't have to declare
that extra sugar. Now, I'd like to drop that sugar - but I just don't have
enough russets. That young orchard problem Gary Awdey mentioned. So I use
as many as I can, and save the best for even smaller specialty batches.
(There's _that_ problem again). Even if I move to adding apple concentrate
instead of cane sugar - it's still not fresh juice, which is not available
enough, storable enough nor clear enough (for my process) for me to use all
the time.
Should that be sufficient grounds to exclude my humble cidre?
Likewise, similar concerns arise with yeast, acid additions, fruit
additions, etc. I bet the only thing Digest readers would agree on is
artificial flavoring or coloring. But I wouldn't bet much.
I don't have the answers (though I'd like to contribute to them) - but as an
active center of discussion about cider production, appreciation and
promotion, it strikes me that the Cider Digest community is well placed and
qualified to bend the ears of competition organizers - if we can agree on
some common 'platform'.
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Boston Beer Co
From: "John Howard" <jhoward@beckerfrondorf.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:31:42 -0400
At the risk of sounding intemperate, I welcome any commercial interest in
cider in the US. If there is ever to be a significant market for artisanal
ciders here, it will probably grow out of the mass market, as consumers will
hopefully become more discerning. After all, we are starting from almost
nothing.
Ben, is the NYC cider event in mid-October open to the public?
John Howard
Philadelphia PA USA
------------------------------
Subject: Containers
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Mon, 9 Jun 2003 13:04:02 -0700
If you can afford it, shop for the variable capacity stainless steel type
used by small wineries. These are typically made in Italy, and until the
dollar dropped were fairly reasonable. The variable capacity is very nice
since you do not need to fuss with odd lots of juice every time you rack.
They are easy to maintain and are available in various sizes. If you are
considering going commercial I would not suggest using food grade PVC. We
started out with PVC tanks, still use them for collecting juice for blending
etc but use the SS for fermenting and storage. All our tanks have flat
bottoms and sit on cement to maintain a fairly constant ambient temperature.
they are fitted with tri-clamp fittings, which again while require a bit of
an initial investment are a must. We tried to go cheap, but have spent more
in the long run replacing the PVC tanks and fittings. I would not suggest
wine barrels unless you really enjoy maintenance jobs. If you need sources,
drop me a note off-digest.
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Competitions and Tasting Events
From: "Awdey, Gary" <gary.awdey@intlsteel.com>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 00:59:19 -0400
Michael Arighi expresses a reasonable desire when he mentions the use the
results of cider competitions to decide what cider to buy (Cider Digest
#1046). However, I disagree about having separate categories for large
commercial producers. Here's why: When you go to buy cider at a store near
home (at least in the US) the chances are pretty good that you'll only find
somewhere between one and four industrial ciders. If you're VERY lucky you
also live reasonably close enough to an artisinal cidermaker and can buy
cider there. Most folks don't want to buy cider via Internet (except maybe
just to try it) because shipping and packaging can easily double what you'll
pay. With only a few choices of what's conveniently available locally why
bother looking at competition results? You can easily try all of them
yourself and decide what YOU like to drink. If you want to try others, ask
your retailers what others are available through their distributors and
request some. At least you may make it more convenient for others in your
area to try a wider selection.
If you have competitions with separate categories for commercial cidermakers
(limited to entries who have both large quantity on hand AND distribution
infrastucture to supply over a very wide geographical area) you limit the
number of entries tremendously. You also make it much easier to achieve
high honors with mediocre cider, eroding the value of the award.
When I started to get serious about tasting cider I tried to track some down
via the Internet. I found several that could be shipped (though most that
could were either produced in my state or imported from Normandy and
subsequently sold by a specialty retailer in my state). Some specialty
retailers apparently consider the point of sale to be their store (you take
possession as soon as the payment is received even if you're not physically
present) and will arrange shipping for the owner (you) but do so with the
disclaimer that it is your responsibility to understand state laws
regulating the shipment of cider to your state. I'm not sure I know anyone
who understands those laws in my state so that's a gray area. I know some
other states have agreements of reciprocity so you can ship between certain
states. New York doesn't appear to have any such reciprocity and my
experience has been that most out-of-state producers or retailers simply
won't ship here. There has been some passing mention of relaxation of the
laws regulating shipping between states. If anyone has any information on
this it would probably be worth sharing. I've been able to try several
ciders I wouldn't have otherwise been able to try simply because I had the
good fortune to have someone bring me some or else found a producer who was
willing to ship laws be damned.
It's relativley expensive to order cider online but still well worthwhile
for trying different ciders. When I do it I try to assemble a good
collection and invite a group to taste it (any subscribers within driving
distance of Eden, way upstate at the eastern end of Lake Erie, is welcome to
ask to be put on the invitation list for later this summer). This sort of
tasting event provides a good chance to try different ciders side-by-side
for comparison, plus it's a good way to give some friends a chance to
educate their cider palates (hearing how your opinion differs from others'
for the same ciders can help you appreciate how much tastes vary, plus you
never know when someone you turn on to cider might bring you a bottle from
some place from which you can't otherwise get it). And FWIW here's what I
have to say about tasting opportunities like CiderDay in Colrain: I drove
most of the night last year to be there (and most of another night to get
home) and wouldn't hesitate to do it again. It's a great way to taste
ciders and meet cider folk.
If you order online you'll probably reach the limit of what you can have
shipped to you before long. I can't help but share Ben Watson's regret that
the Boston Beer Company hadn't bottled more and sold it over a wider
geographical distance in accordance with the laws of supply and demand. A
distinguished cider deserves a premium price and I'd have been willing to
pay extra to try it. The higher price is the incentive that drives the
producer to invest in making more of it. (And many thanks to Ben Watson for
clearing up some of the BBC confusion.)
Gary Awdey
Eden, NY
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Boston Beer Co.
From: Roy Bailey <sales@lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 15:01:07 +0100
In article , Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net> writes
>While I agree with the sentiment that the US public deserves a
>decent-tasting cider, I thought I'd give what context I can on Boston
>Beer Co.'s latest efforts.
>
>Early this spring I tasted both the final product and the two precursor
>batches that were blended to make it. The cidermaker consultant is the
>former head guy at Bulmer in the UK, whose name escapes me at the
>moment. He was there (at Farnum Hill Ciders in western New Hampshire),
>as was BBC's Grant Wood, who has been experimenting with real cider
>apples and what can be done with them.
>
>The cider was quite good and definitely British in style.
The problem is what do you mean by 'British in style'? The perception of
cider among most people in the UK (and probably elsewhere) is either that
cider is made exclusively in the western counties of England, or that the
only cider worth bothering about is made in the western counties of England.
Cider and the West of England are so irrevocably wedded in the public mind
that any mention of the drink will inevitably bring forth a reminiscence of
drinking 'scrumpy' in Somerset!
In fact, cider (and to a lesser extent perry) is made in some 26 counties of
England and Wales, which is actually about half of them. There is a long
tradition of cider making in the county of Kent, to the south-east of
London, where they make their cider from cookers and eaters such as Cox's
Orange Pippin and Bramley. This style of cider making extends up the East
Coast as well and also inland. It is how I make mine here in Berkshire, west
of London.
As you are probably aware, cider in the well-known western counties -
Cornwall, Devon, Somerset, Gloucestershire, Herefordshire and Worcestershire
- - is made from a different type of apple normally high in tannin and lower
in acid, and therefore tastes much different from the Eastern Counties
cider. This does not, in my opinion, make the latter any less valid as a
drink, and I know a lot of people prefer the sharp, fruity, citric taste of
Kentish cider to the rather blander, nuttier taste of West Country cider.
However, the perceived taste of cider in the minds of most drinkers is of
the West Country type, and judges at competitions tend to come from the West
of England or to have their palates attuned only to West Country cider.
Consequently, ciders from other parts of England stand little or no chance
of winning at competitions. This is not sour grapes on my part - it is a
fact.
Indeed, as far as I am aware, all the cider competitions are held in the
West of England, and attract very few entries from the producers in the
east. So if the Boston Beer Company made a cider from cider apples for a
competition to be held in Hereford, they stood a very good chance of winning
something.
- --
Roy Bailey - Proprietor
The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
<www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
------------------------------
Subject: (mis)use of competition results
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 11 Jun 2003 15:39:28 -0600 (MDT)
In reply to various thoughts and good ideas about competition results (too
many different articles to try to gather all the attributions), here's
still more thoughts.
I believe that any competition which strives to be credible will have to
place limitations on how the results of the competition may be used by the
entrants. Failing to do so will almost certainly lead to abuse of the
results and potential disgrace of the competition (but NOT, I emphasize,
necessarily any disgrace to the competitors!). And like it or not, you'll
need to deal with lawyers. If you don't do it before the competition, with
lawyers in an advocacy role, you'll do it afterward, dealing with lawyers
in an adversarial role.
One block on mis-use of competition results is to trademark the name of the
competition. That's easy enough and it establishes the concept that the
name of the competition can't be used without permission of the organizers.
Another is a written agreement, as part of the entry process, restricting
how winners may use the results--and this should be restrictive, not per-
missive, by which I mean "anything not explicitly permitted is prohibited."
As to dealing with special competition-only batches, something I've seen in
wine competitions is that the winner information (such as a little gold
sticker with the competition name) can only be used on the winning product.
So if your main product wins the competition, you can use the winner's
ribbon logo on that product and reap the benefits of the win for all your
sales. If you make 10 cases of a winner and sell 10 million cases of alco-
pop, well, you get to advertise the win on 10 cases and think about whether
you should make more next time.
I don't think it will work to distinguish retail-only _vs_ made-just-for-
competition commercial products. You've always got to think how the rules
can be cheated, and in this case it's easy: Make the special batch, but
make enough that there's leftover to put it up for retail sale in a very
restricted area for a week or so. "Well, gosh, it was just so good and
the ingredients are limited in availability...we sold all we could."
This leaves open the question of how much you'd allow a commercial producer
to advertise a win in non-product-specific ways. Beware; that's slippery
too. Each time you propose a rule to protect competition results, you have
to stop, change hats, and figure out how you, as a competitor, would cheat
that rule in order to maximize the value of a competition win.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1047
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