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Cider Digest #1062
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1062, 7 August 2003
Cider Digest #1062 7 August 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
RE: Cider Digest #1061, 3 August 2003 (breen@fedcoseeds.com)
Homemade presses (Terence L Bradshaw)
Stabilizing a sweet table cider ("McGonegal, Charles")
RE: Defining "real" cider (David Daly)
Artisanal Cider ("gmarion.dri.edu")
bottle pasteurization (jack o feil)
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Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1061, 3 August 2003
From: breen@fedcoseeds.com
Date: Sun, 3 Aug 2003 12:45:57 -0500
>From Heron Breen
about REAL CIDER:
Here's a few thoughts about this attempt at definitions: This seems
to have no REAL benefit in educating the public, or who I see as the
public, ie New Englanders, of their heritage or traditions. What good
is a definition of so-called REAL CIDER that only makes sense from a
homogeous marketing perspective?
Not too long ago, there was a regional home-crafted wine/cider contest
held at the state apple promotion day. A well-known cider maker was
there giving a tasting of his product, and the judges asked for a palate
whetting donation to gauge the cider category. Happy to oblige, our friend
donated said bottle, and the judges quaffed down to business. All responded
with disgust! To no fault of the cider maker's though! His styles are of
traditional English in origin, and darn good. But to the folks who had
set their own internal clocks to the original taste they had encountered
as children or New England transplants, this was NOT cider! Or cider they
would want to drink, at least.
I would much rather promote REGIONAL or LOCAL cider in each of its unique
manifestations than create a derivitive collection of adjectives and rules
to define REAL cider for the world or the US as a whole. And it seems the
state and regional chapter structure of Slow Food would embrace this,
or have they changed their charter system and mission? Or am I hearing
that we all wish to emulate the UK cider styles and forget about or own
rural traditions? I come from Somerset county in MAINE, not across the
Atlantic, right? This is not a case of nationalism, its a case of diverse
evolution. And much due credit to Brit Alan Rowe saying cider is apples
and nothing but, and any added this and that and the other can be left for
the birds. Strong words, but an honest perspective from his tradition,
region, and experience. Cider is maybe not meant to be seen in the same
arena as wine? Country drink for simple folk I feel, so let us try to
keep a definition country and simple. Wine is seen as such in some places
still, thank god. To hell with consistency (sp?), let's return to reality.
Let Britain have its Cyder, which differs from Spanish cider, which differs
from French cider, and I'll spend more time embracing and re-establishing
the lush taste of Baldwins, Golden Russets, Twenty Ounce Pippins and the
like in a New England style of cider.
I would refer folks to an interesting Slow Food event that took place here
in Maine all about beans! Baking beans, their techniques and varieties,
different regional (even within one state) interpretations can alone make
your head spin.
Oh yes, I would encourage that all presently operating for commerce cider
crafters be actively sought for opinions. Let's ask them how they want to
be defined, you know? Can't wait for my first taste of sweet cider in a
few weeks...oh yes, the continual reference to "alco-pop" is boring and
useless. Those who drink stout don't need to rip on Bud. They only have
to pour a drink for their friend and see what happens, so just share your
cider wealth. All things for all people, I think.
Heron
remember to smile when it turns out to be vinegar!
------------------------------
Subject: Homemade presses
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Sun, 03 Aug 2003 19:49:36 -0400
Hello all:
I have chanced upon the beginnings of my own press, and I'm looking for
people who have used hydraulic shop presses for cidermaking. I came across
a beautiful SS knife mill with motor and hopper, as well as about 10-12 28"
wood racks and associated press cloths. Now, I need the press. I figure
I'll have to trim the racks down a bit, as 28" is a really big squeeze for
a home setup. I am considering using a 20-50 ton hydraulic shop press for
the power. I know I'll have to modify the bottom shelf and make a
collection box.
Does anyone here use a shop press for squeezing,? If so, what size; tons
and rack width? How many bushels per cheese, and cheeses per squeeze? I
am curious.
I have operated a 28" ORC commercial mill before, and currently hire a
large homemade wooden unit with massive turnscrews for generating the
pressure. I have also used the one-bushel one-squeeze basket presses. I
want something in between these where I can squeeze off as little as 5-10
and up to 30-35 gallons per squeeze, preferably with a yield of 2+ gal per
bushel.
Thanks in advance,
Terry B
Terence Bradshaw
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
madshaw@innevi.com
(802)229-2004
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
------------------------------
Subject: Stabilizing a sweet table cider
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2003 07:36:33 -0500
At some level, I'm sure Dick will find this amusing.
I'm finding that local demand is pushing me to _still_ cider, on the sweeter
side, rather than the dry sparkling cider I started with.
Well, live and learn - I'm not going to argue with folks about their taste.
I'll just go and make something they like :-)
Alas, I find my skills at making a sweet table wine seem to be a little
lacking. I'm starting from a completely dry cider - which gives me more
flexibility in how I finish it, and back sweetening with concentrate. Well,
fine and dandy, but I just spent Sunday pullling the corks of several
hundred bottles of perry that had begun to sparkle. This makes two for two
on my recent attempts.
Now, I had attempted to sterile filter the first try (a cider).
Unsuccessfully. Perhaps I wasn't filtering tight enough, perhaps my
equipment/site isn't up to the task. The folks at Presque Isle note that it
can be nearly impossible for small operations to achieve sterility. (I'd
love to hear opinions on that) In the second case, I added the concentrate
after filtering - but used K-sorbate. Could the concentrate have harbored a
dormant yeast load heavy enough to overwhelm the K-sorb? Anyone with (more)
experience willing to venture an opinion?
My sparkling ciders don't give me trouble, disgorging takes out enough yeast
to make them stable. And the other sweet things I do are fortified - again
no problem. But since my own taste runs rather dry, I just don't have much
practice with sweet. I guess it's better to work it out on 50-100 gallons
than on something 10x bigger.
I'm looking at some equipment changes that could let me run completely
sealed from the outlet of the pump to my bottle filler. (A little four spout
Italian job). My current holding tank is open topped. With a sulfite
bottle rinse, is that sufficient to keep the cider sterile?
In general, I'm loathe to treat cider/wine so - but I've got to have the
stability for the customers. From recent discussions, I guess I'm a little
odd in preferring chemical stabilization over heat. Maybe it's because I'm
a chemist. I dunno. But I scratch my head a little at the idea of
preferring sulfite over pastuerization pre-fermentation, but preferring
bottle pastuerization over K-sorb post-fermentation. (I will say that I'm
not one of the folks who can taste sorbate at low levels - I'm sure that
affects my opinion, too)
Charles McGonegal
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Defining "real" cider
From: David Daly <great_pumpkin74@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2003 12:40:41 -0700 (PDT)
Just wanted to add my 2 cents to the current debate.
I'd like to nominate the term "traditional" cider in
lieu of the aforementioned "artisinal" or "real". I
think this term could give meaning to the distinction
that I believe we're trying to draw (that is, cider
made in the historical manner of fermenting a crop of
apples cultivated and selected specifically for this
purpose, and respecting the nature of the fruit by
proper aging under proper conditions, a seasonal
process with more similarities to small-scale
winemaking than the churn-it-out-fast-like-beer
process of the "big" industrial cidermakers.) While
I'm an opponent of pasteurization and chaptalizing
adjuncts (I agree that a seperate "specialty cider"
designation would also be welcome), I'll leave the
debate about the specifics of brix levels and juice
ratios to those who know more than me. I just think
that "real" simply confuses the issue further (at
least here in the US, where we have enough trouble
distinguishing between "sweet" and "hard" cider as it
is) and "artisinal", while commenting on the
cidermaker and implying "hand-crafted" and (usually)
"small-scale", is a generally little-used term that
would lack meaning for the average person (and I
realize that many of us in the Digest are far from
"average" when it comes to our passion for this
beverage!). I like "traditional" specifically because
it connotates the history of cider (and how often when
we are pressed to explain cider to the uninitiated do
we start with its historical significance?)while
implying a handing-down of this tradition to
modern-day practitioners. Certainly this term has its
flaws. The basics of the tradition may be
"handed-down" but the chain is not unbroken, and the
advent of modern technology dictates that we make
"improvements", thereby implicitly altering the
process. Certainly historical cidermaking included
practices that we may not wish to include in our
definition of "traditional" (i.e. the inclusion of
raisins and other sweeteners in "Yankee" or "New
England-style" cider). But when a great modern
cidermaker like Terry Maloney of West County or Steve
Woods of Farnum Hill sets out to turn the bounty of
this year's crop into the bounty of next year's table,
aren't they essentially undertaking a traditional
process not far removed from what John Adams, Thomas
Jefferson and thousands of homestead farmers practiced
in colonial America, and a process fundamentally very
different from what the "alco-pop" manufacturers
undertake? Isn't that basically what we're trying to
say?
- -Dave Daly
Malden, MA
------------------------------
Subject: Artisanal Cider
From: "gmarion.dri.edu" <gmarion@dri.edu>
Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2003 17:17:55 -0700
OK, here are my two cents with respect to the question of what
constitutes "artisanal cider." I basically agree with Ben's Points 1-4
in Cider Digest #1061. However I take exception with Point 5. To ban
adjuncts such as honey, raisins, preservatives, etc. would for example
ban New England-Style cider, which requires raisins, brown sugar, oak,
etc. This is the only true American-style cider. An artisan is a
skilled craftsman. I am sure that there are skilled craftmans making
New England-style cider. To ban preservatives such as sorbate would
make it difficult for amateurs who like to balance the final product
with sweeteners or preserve with sulfites. Why hamstring cidermakers?
Here are my two cents with respect to still versus sparkling
ciders. I have been making apple wines/ciders for 15 years. Over that
period, I have experimented with both still and sparkling versions. For
example, I make 13 gallons of cider last year, 8 gallons of still and 5
gallons of sparkling. Two of these ciders are exactly the same except
that one was left still and other was artificially carbonated. In my
humble opinion, the still version is much tastier than the sparkling
version. There is something about the sparkling version that
neutralizes the complexity of the taste. Maybe it's the way the
carbonic acid reacts with the tongue. Surely someone must have examined
this question with experiments in the past. For you professionals, is
there any literature on this subject?
Regards, Giles.
- --
Dr. Giles M. Marion
Earth and Ecosystem Sciences
Desert Research Institute 775-673-7349 (phone)
2215 Raggio Parkway 775-673-7485 (fax)
Reno, NV 89512 gmarion@dri.edu
------------------------------
Subject: bottle pasteurization
From: jack o feil <feilorchards@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Aug 2003 22:45:42 -0700
I'm a beginner at cider fermentation, but when growing up with
fresh cider making on our orchard, occasionally a jug would start to
"work" and at that stage( I would steal a sip) it was a refreshing drink
with a nice fizz and probably with an insignificant alcohol content. As I
recall it still had much of the fresh cider taste it started out with.
I just completed my first try at fermentation and while it didn't
taste bad I was disappointed that it had none of the character of the
original juice. and as Andrew Lea indicated, that's the way it is, the
aromatics don't carry through to the end of the fermentation process.
Dr. Lea also mentioned bottle pasteurization. My thought is this,
when the fermentation process has generated, say 4 or 5 percent alcohol
and is still working,bottle pasteurize it in an attempt to retain some of
its fresh juice characteristics and fizz. Will it work , has anyone out
there had experience along those lines? I'd like to hear.
Thanks, Jack
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1062
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