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Cider Digest #1065
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1065, 11 August 2003
Cider Digest #1065 11 August 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
the emperor's new raisins ?!? (Dick Dunn)
Re: Cider Digest #1064, 9 August 2003 (Kathy Hutchins)
Where to start? (Andrew Lea)
What's in a name? (Andrew Lea)
Press calculations (Andrew Lea)
In-bottle pasteurisation (Andrew Lea)
RE: Cider Digest #1064, 9 August 2003 ("Mike Thomas")
Re: Metcalfe's cider (Benjamin Watson)
ice cider (Benjamin Watson)
Re: Cider Digest #1064, 9 August 2003 ("Bill Rhyne")
Cider- whatever it is- issues ("Mike Tomlinson")
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Subject: the emperor's new raisins ?!?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2003 22:34:58 -0600 (MDT)
Terry Maloney <terry@westcountycider.com> wrote in the last Cider Digest:
> There have been several mentions in recent digests of Traditional New
> England Cider as having sugar or raisins added. Our neighbors here in
> Western Massachusetts who have been making hard cider from generation to
> generation, "the way they always have", don't add anything. And when
> you think about it, sugar and raisins were luxury items until the late
> 1800's-- not something that would be used by a frugal Yankee...
OK, so Terry makes some good points here. But, then, where have we gotten
the idea of a "traditional" New England cider style that is massively
chaptalized (sugar or raisins)?? Is there any basis for it? Is it some-
how a minor variation on a style that grew through folklore?
I think a lot of us have been coasting along assuming that this was a real
style...and deferring to its validity, even though it's not something we
would make, nor something we've much encountered. Terry has really thrown
down the gauntlet, in a historical sense. Is it nothing but an "urban
legend" (in this case, a "rural legend")?
The idea of using raisins, in particular, ought to be something the his-
torians among us could ferret out.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1064, 9 August 2003
From: Kathy Hutchins <khutchins@direcway.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 01:58:30 -0400
From: "Stevan Vaughan" <svaughan@fincounsel.com>
> Help!
> I began a vintage cider orchard of about 25 trees last year, but have a
> couple of mature trees to begin experimenting with fermenting this fall.
> I have a press already and have made sweet cider before.
>
> Now I need to know what I need to buy next. I looked at some starter
> beer/wine kits at Northern Brewer, but they don't seem exactly suited
> for cider. I do have a book and have read Andrew's website a number of
> times, but I honestly still don't know where to begin!
The first autumn I made cider, I went to a beer/wine supply store and
bought:
- - 6 five gallon glass carboys
- - 6 airlocks (the kind you put water in to make the seal)
- - 1 'thief'
- - 1 inexpensive hygrometer
- - 1 racking cane
- - Campden tablets
- - some powdered oxygen based sterilizer
- - five different kinds of yeast, including lager, champagne, and mead. The
store didn't have any yeast specifically for cider, and I was the first
ciderer they'd ever talked to.
We got our procedure out of Annie Proulx's book, with some side advice from
Vrest Orton. We did test for brix, and added cane sugar to some of the
carboys but not others (we were just playing around to see what would
happen.) We bought six carboys but only started cider in five of them, that
way I always had one spare when it was time to rack off the lees I'd do it
one at a time, clean the old one out and have it ready for the next racking.
That equipment carried us through to the early spring, when the cider was
ready to bottle. At that time, I bought:
- - a five gallon food grade bucket -- we racked out of the carboy into that,
and from the bucket to the bottle. You can skip that and bottle straight
from the carboy, but it was easier for us to do that way.
- - some siphon tubing
- - a filling tube (has a valve on the end you press on the bottom of the
bottle, lift when the bottle's full)
- - a bottle capper -- a good bench one, not the butterfly kind
- - bottlecaps (2 lbs, I think)
(I had been saving bottles, if I hadn't I'd have had to buy those too.)
Considering neither of us had ever made beer or wine before, had no one to
talk to about it, and had not a clue what we were doing, the batches turned
out acceptable to spectacular. Everyone's favorite would not have made the
Real Cider list, though, it had three pounds of wild black raspberries added
to it after the first ferment slowed down. It was the color of Dr. Brown's
black cherry soda, full of delicate bubbles and dry as a bone (used the
champagne yeast in that one). My best friend openly wept when the last of
that batch was gone.
Good luck, and with the trees too. We have just moved to a small farm and
put in 18 trees this spring. We have one big old apple tree of undetermined
type, and two pears of similar age and anonymity, which will contribute
their fruit to the press this fall.
Kathy Hutchins
khutchins@direcway.com
------------------------------
Subject: Where to start?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 10:07:04 +0100
Steve wrote:
>
> I began a vintage cider orchard of about 25 trees last year, but have a
> couple of mature trees to begin experimenting with fermenting this fall.
> I have a press already and have made sweet cider before.
>
> Now I need to know what I need to buy next. I looked at some starter
> beer/wine kits at Northern Brewer, but they don't seem exactly suited
> for cider.
Forget beer! Cider is a fruit wine! So the minimum you need is just a
fermenting vessel fitted with an airlock. Run the juice into that, add
maybe one Campden tablet per gallon (50 ppm sulphite) to knock out
undesirable microbes, and after 2 or 3 weeks the wild Saccharomyces
yeasts should begin to ferment by themselves. Let it go to completion
and you'll have your first dry cider. The fundamental process is as
simple as that. If you don't like what you get, you can tweak the
process next time around! And that's where you need the books or the
websites to learn the more advanced stuff.
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: What's in a name?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:04:21 +0100
My six penn'orth...
I started to use the word 'artisanal' just a few months back following
the usage of my colleague Jean=Francois Drilleau from the Cider
Institute at Rennes in France. I never used it before. It works well in
French but heck, I don't even know how to pronounce it in English!!
Where should the stresses come? ArtISanal? ArtisANal?
Actually I think 'Craft' is best. There was a short-lived Guild of
Craft Cidermakers here in the UK recently, but everyone knew what the
word implied and without getting into all the semantics of 'Real' (which
certainly does have a holier-than-thou implication to it, just as much
in the UK as the US).
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Press calculations
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:04:46 +0100
To help people designing presses, I posted these calculations on the
Digest some years back. Here they are again:
Home-made Ag-Canada style press 16 inch square cheese with a 2 ton
bottle jack gives 17 psi. Not really gutsy enough. Slow and only 60%
juice yield.
Ditto with 8 ton bottle jack gives 70 psi. That's OK. Faster and better
juice yield (up to 70%). I used this for many years.
Commercial Voran press with 18" square bed and 20 ton electric
hydraulics gives 138 psi. That's plenty good enough for anyone. Yields
over 75%. I graduated to this by good luck a couple of years back.
Target value should be a minimum of 50 psi and up to 140 psi. Anything
over that is overkill and forces the pulp right into the cloths.
And all that assumes that the apples are milled to the usual pea-sized
pulp nuggets before pressing. Pressing unmilled apples is a total
non-starter and fermenting on the pulp makes a mess like you would not
believe!!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: In-bottle pasteurisation
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2003 11:06:07 +0100
Jack wrote:
> Dr. Lea also mentioned bottle pasteurization. My thought is this,
> when the fermentation process has generated, say 4 or 5 percent alcohol
> and is still working,bottle pasteurize it in an attempt to retain some of
> its fresh juice characteristics and fizz. Will it work , has anyone out
> there had experience along those lines? I'd like to hear.
This is potentially do-able but you have a heck of a lot of yeast in
suspension at this stage in general, so you end up with a lot of
sediment. A much better answer is to re-start a controlled secondary
fermentation and then pasteurise when the correct taste profile is
obtained (see Ag-Canada leaflet mentioned by Bill last time). And do be
prepared for the odd exploding bottle!
And Charles wrote:
> The folks at Presque Isle note that it
> can be nearly impossible for small operations to achieve sterility. (I'd
> love to hear opinions on that)
This is true. I have heard and met so many sadder and now wiser people
who thought they could sterile filter cider and ended up with exploding
bottles and ruined stock. Forget it! Unless you have operating-theatre
standards of sterility and constant microbiological monitoring, it
simply isn't practicable. Even the big UK companies abandoned it as far
as I know.
>In the second case, I added the concentrate
> after filtering - but used K-sorbate. Could the concentrate have harbored a
> dormant yeast load heavy enough to overwhelm the K-sorb? Anyone with (more)
> experience willing to venture an opinion?
>
Too right this is true! Concentrates contain the osmotolerant yeasts
popularly known as 'rouxii' and 'baillii'. These are also resistant to
all permitted preservatives. They'll munch through sorbate, benzoate
and sulphite just like it wasn't there! Only heat will kill 'em!
> In general, I'm loathe to treat cider/wine so - but I've got to have the
> stability for the customers. From recent discussions, I guess I'm a little
> odd in preferring chemical stabilization over heat. Maybe it's because I'm
> a chemist. I dunno.
Well I'm a chemist too but IMO a blast of heat is the best and safest
medicine. Bugs can always outwit the chemical preservatives, but they
can't beat heat! Yes there are flavour changes but they needn't be
adverse. They tell me pasteurisation is quite widely used in the white
wine industry now but only very quietly for fear that the punters will
get to hear about it!!
I proved the limitations of chemicals to myself yet again earlier this
year when I bottled just one case of an experimental sweetened still
perry with the maximum sulphite and sorbate - great product (thanks for
the fruit, Roy!)! But after six weeks and a spell of hot weather there
was broken glass all over the place!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: RE: Cider Digest #1064, 9 August 2003
From: "Mike Thomas" <MThomas@oldvalley.com.au>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 08:03:30 +0800
I am new to this forum and to cider making in general. I was wondering
if anyone could tell me how you can tell if the volatile acidity is too
high, do you get a particular type of odour?
On another note - about "craft cider" there is a disease here in
Australia called c.r.a.f.t. disease which can be caught by drinking too
much cider. It stands for Can't Remember a Flippin' Thing!)
Regards,
Mike Thomas
Technical Officer
Old Valley Pty Ltd
2 Sherman St
Canning Vale WA 6155
Tel (61 8) 9455 7077
Fax (61 8) 9455 7677
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Metcalfe's cider
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:22:08 -0400
John Tanzini wrote:
> I spent a few days in Vermont last week, and I came
> across a bottle of Metcalfe's Cider. Since they claim
> to be a "traditional English cider," I picked up a
> bottle and brought it home. I'm very curious to find
> out what a "real" cider tastes like. I don't see any
> in the stores near me, and I can't find any true cider
> making apples either.
>
> So what is the consensus of the experts. Is this a
> traditional English cider or close to it?
I haven't had Metcalfe's cider in a few years (produced by North River
Winery in Jacksonville, VT), but I am trying to invite them to
participate in the Open Tasting or Cider Salon at the 9th Annual Cider
Day in nearby Franklin Co., Mass. on Sat. Nov. 1.
From what I recall, Metcalfe's is more of a "New English" cider than
what I think of as an "English-style" cider. I am almost sure that they
chaptalize the juice before fermentation to bring up the alcohol -- I
believe it comes in around 8% abv. I can't remember how still it is,
but all of the West Country ciders I have had in England have been dead
still and usually cask drawn rather than bottled.
Ciders that I think are more in the English tradition include Sow's Ear
cider from Brooksville, ME; Flag Hill Cyder from Vershire, VT; and
especially White Oak Cider from Newberg, OR. I think that what marks
these ciders is the rough "country" edge that we call FYM (farmyard
manure), which is not a defect but the result of Brettanomyces bacteria
- -- Alan Foster at White Oak also uses an English cider yeast which
contributes to this character. Also, these ciders may have undergone
some malolactic fermentation, which yields that rather nutty quality
that many people enjoy.
Alan Foster at White Oak and Steve Wood at Farnum Hill also produce
Kingston Black ciders that are reminiscent of good English ciders you
might buy at the farm gate.
Ben Watson
------------------------------
Subject: ice cider
From: Benjamin Watson <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:29:46 -0400
Scott Smith wrote:
> I noticed I said "all the different traditions could fit" above, but
> really there should be nothing wrong with new methods as long as they
> are toward a high-quality, non-factory product. For instance I have
> been getting a lot out of the idea of freezing cider to concentrate it
> before fermenting it. There is a long tradition of freezing cider
> after fermenting (applejack), and of freezing grapes before fermenting
> (eiswein), but no tradition of freezing cider before fermenting. I
> hope that doesn't make it a bad (and disallowed) idea as far as rules
> would go.
There may or may not be a "tradition" of freezing cider before
fermentation, but there are plenty of people in Quebec who are doing it
now! There are even a few growers who are waiting to harvest the apples
until the fruits are frozen solid (Dec. or Jan.) and then pressing the
fruits, a la ice wine.
I am researching an article on these ice ciders in the next few weeks,
and will report back to the group on my findings and any superior ice
cider makers.
However, ice ciders are a special category. The abv. is higher, around
10% or more, and they are sweet -- sold in 375 ml. bottles as aperitifs
or after-dinner drinks. They are most analagous to pommeau, which is
made by adding cider brandy to fresh-pressed juice.
One good product I have tried is Domaine Pinnacle glace de cidre, made
in Frelighsburg, Quebec.
Ben Watson
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1064, 9 August 2003
From: "Bill Rhyne" <rhyne@wli.net>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 09:21:47 -0700
Question for the group
I have seen on the label of commercial ciders in the market the words "cider
stock" listed as one of the ingredients. Are consumers to assume that this
is an apple product or is this term a catch-all for fermented juices blended
together? Anybody have an idea what cider stock means?
Bill Rhyne
------------------------------
Subject: Cider- whatever it is- issues
From: "Mike Tomlinson" <mtomlins@health.co.santa-cruz.ca.us>
Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2003 10:28:13 -0700
Folks and fellow cider-holics
I want to jump back into the frey.
Several point of information.
* I am interested in the concepts of the Slow Foods movement and
possibly they will/are serving as a catalyst for our current
discussions. I am developing with them, and independent of them, a
listing of existant varieties of old apples currently identified and
still growing in the US. I want to at least identify who has them and
what their street address is even if we don't get to the GPS location of
the specific tree so that they may be preserved for the future. Whether
we sell, swap or give the scions away is not important to me personally.
I am not in this for commercial reasons!
* I have an apple orchard in PA where I grow over 200 varieties of old
mid atlantic apples. The trees are now 2-3 years old.
* My orchard being young does not produce enough fruit to produce juice
for cider and so, while in PA, I helped press and used a blend from a
nearby orchard who is now starting to flash pasteurize their juice. Now
that I am living in Santa Cruz , CA I cannot find any source of
unpasteurized juice let alone single variety unpasteurized juice.
* The realities are that despite fermentation killing e coli (according
to the folks at Cornell) the public doesn't/won't understand and demands
apple juice be pasteurized.
* It is my opinion that there are some two dozen small commerical
licensed cider makers in the US and Canada. To my knowledge there are
the two or three folks in Mass, several in eastern Canada and several in
BC, one in Ithaca, and several in Northern CA (Bill Rhyne, Murdo Laird
and Ace Cider - Jeff House) and Washington/Oregon with about 6
producers. What the total volume produced is unknown but my guess is
that probably it is equal to a day or a week's run by Boston Beer and
their "industrial cider" (which is pretty good on a hot day). My
source of information of the number of "producers" is that several years
ago when I was trying to put my USDA application for the creation of a
cider guild together I attended a special session put on by the magazine
called Vinyard Managment ((?) I think that is its name) where they had
announced a session devoted to cider. It was held in Lancaster PA and
about 35 people attended including some folks from Mass. One of the
speakers was the leader of the Washington/ BC cider group. I circulated
a sign up list and volunteered to try to put together a chat group of
cider makers. Many who signed up were interested but not producers and
lost interest over the year or so I kept the group alive.
* No one in the current cider digest discussion group seems to like the
word "artisanal" but there has been little agreement on what to call
what we make. I call what I make "cider" and those here in Santa Cruz
who know about it know that what I offer is alcoholic- i.e the British
definition. Personally I would like to see our laws changed to a more
British model and allow people to produce and sell it from their "farm
house" even if that happens to be in a city.
* I am currently using a New England recipe and am trying to research
old mid-atlantic cider recipes given that Philadelphia was the center of
civilization in the Western Hemisphere from ~1700 to ~1825 and they all
drank cider from the SE PA and West Jersey orchards.
* Given the above points I seem to be disqualified from belonging to the
Slow Foods group or even this group of cider people for I am using a
pasteurized "store bought" apple juice blend. While I am here in CA for
that is all I can buy. I have contacted over 25 orchards from here north
in CA and can not find anyone who will sell unpasteurized juice. They
won't take the legal chance after the Odwalla situation and I can't say
I blame them. As the wave of (quasi) legal requirments for pasteuriztion
growns I suspect that the number of small commercial cider operations
will decrease because of the risk and the fact that the numbers don't
work.
For one I would like to know who is involved with this discussion and
are they in fact a small commerical producer, a hobbyist cider maker
like me who makes it for his friends and will continue to do so, or of
some other ilk? As an operational type I am tired of academics who
pontificate but have never dug a hole or planted a tree or got stung by
wasps as they press cider.
So with these constraints on the producion of cider you may not be able
to find anyone who will meet the various ciriteria and therefore wind up
with no one. Sorry for venting!
Mike Tomlinson
#1 Farm's
Dog Nosed Cider
tugger@netreach.net
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1065
*************************
