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Cider Digest #1010
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1010, 16 December 2002
Cider Digest #1010 16 December 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Response to various rootstocks posts. ("Ed Fackler")
Cider apples in New England ("Jason MacArthur")
cider varieties, tannin, keeving (Dick Dunn)
Whats my cider doing? And, tannins in cider apples in US (Scott Smith)
Cider haze (Andrew Lea)
more on tannin (Dick Dunn)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Response to various rootstocks posts.
From: "Ed Fackler" <rocmdw@aye.net>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 11:12:11 -0500
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:54:47 +0000
Dan,
I grow Ribston Pippin here in Oxfordshire, UK. Not as a cider apple -
just for eating. I find it very very prone to scab and to 'star
crack'. But what fruit I do get I enjoy. It is allegedly one of the
parents of 'Cox Orange Pippin', arguably the most well known of UK
dessert apples.
My response-------
Like yourself, Ribston was one of the finest eating apples we
grew. The persistant problem which I never was able to resolve was
the lack of pollination and subsequent light cropping.
And the Ribston tree was located in an orchard which contained
some 350-400 apple varieties.
Or, in our So. Indiana (US) location Ribston was extremely shy year-in,
year-out. I finally eliminated it after some 12 years.
Comments on pollination welcomed.
Subject: Drought resistance trees
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net (Lee Elliott)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:46:37 -0600 (CST)
Seedling trees are more drought resistant than trees with clonal
rootstocks but the seedlings seed must be planted on site and later a
top grafted on. (a seedling will send down a deep tap root if not dug up
and tap root cut) this may be a lot of trouble but will get you a deep
drought resistant tree, Pick seeds from a good vigorous, fireblight
resistant cultivar, I like Ben Davis or Hawkeye red Del.
Subject: Rootstocks
From: James Cummins <jnc1@localnet.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:32:13 -0700
in re: Dr. Steve Ingels in CD#1008
Malling-Merton 111 is a good choice for the conditions described, but
there are other alternatives. MM.111 tends to delay onset of fruiting,
often similar to seedling stock, and tree size can be larger than most
of us want.
Faithful old Malling 7 is more tolerant than MM.111 of high soil
temperatures; induces earlier production; and tree size is usually
considerably smaller. On the other hand, anchorage can be poor, and M.7
is absolutely intolerant of fragipan.
My response--------------
I'll respond to both of the above re: drought tolerance within the various
apple rootstocks.
In our heavy clay (although fairly fertile) soils, MM111 was, by far the
most efficient stock in years of extreme drought (1988 and 1999 set records).
We used MM111 extensively as a base for various interstem combinations. Also,
MM111 was extremely resistant to both WAA and local strains of phytopthra.
Conversely, fruit size (and subsequent year's flowering density) was
severely reduced on M7 trees. And in our longer (than Jim Cummins New York
locale) growing season, trees on M7 were only around 5% smaller than those
on MM111 and almost as delinquent in initial production. Neither stock
enhanced fruit size except when M9 was worked onto MM111 for interstem trees.
Hope this helps.
Ed Fackler, formerly of heavenly So. Indiana
------------------------------
Subject: Cider apples in New England
From: "Jason MacArthur" <jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 14:40:34 -0500
I live in southern Vt. at about 1600 feet elevation, and I am hoping to
plant some english and french bitters next spring. The varieties I have in
mind are Major, Medaille' d'Or, and Stoke Red. I am wondering what
experience growers have had getting these to ripen in the US or New England.
Happ cidering!
Jason MacArthur
jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Subject: cider varieties, tannin, keeving
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:44:15 -0700 (MST)
In Cider Digest 1009, From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com> wrote:
...
> In my experience it is very difficult / impossible to do keeving
> succesfully with any apples other than French or English bittersweets
> grown under specifically low nitrogen conditions...
...
> ...But even then success is not at all certain. Sadly, i have some
> anecdotal evidence that even these BS cultivars, when grown in climates
> outside of the damp cold oceanic ones they came from (eg in much of the
> US), do not produce the high tannin levels that they do with us here in
> NW Europe.
Could we pursue this further? Does anyone else have evidence about tannin
levels of English/French bittersweets in the US? Even anecdotal evidence in
response is interesting. Results of experiments with keeving *might* help,
in the sense that a keeving failure might not say much but success *would*
say something. Measurements on tannins would be particularly interesting.
I did hear "anecdotal evidence" of one French variety producing high tannin
in a very mild US climate, and I've had US ciders that were notably tannic.
I'm also interested in pursuing this because what Andrew has heard doesn't
tell us *what* about the difference between SW England or Normandy and some
place in the US might make a difference in tannin. (Per above, there are
certainly cider-makers in the US producing finished ciders with plenty of
tannin. Whether they are attempting keeving, I don't know.) Couldn't the
lack of tannin in some areas of the US, with some varieties, be any of, or
any combination of, growing season, winter chill, summer highs, humidity,
soil type...? (The point of the last item: Is it even known to be a
climate factor and not a soil factor?)
And the US covers such a variety of climates...I'm not sure what common
factor there would be. (Are English apples bitter that the folks over
there still drive on the wrong side of the road?:)
Sounds like a research project to me. We could get a good start on it with
the folks here on the digest, between the pros and the serious amateurs, if
we could normalize how we describe weather (something more than "really dry"
or "kinda hot":), and find a simple way for everyone to quantify tannin.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: Whats my cider doing? And, tannins in cider apples in US
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 11:06:34 -0500
I have a batch of dessert apples at around 1.060 initial gravity which
has been sitting for around three weeks without a yeast addition. Its
doing *something*, if I taste it I can tell there is CO2. But, the
gravity is pretty much unchanged and the airlock isn't bubbling. Is
this just a slow-starting natural ferment? Also it has a strong
chemical smell when I open it (I am using a 6-gal plastic tub with
sealed lid) so something is happening. There are no off-tastes in the
juice.
Tim, Re: your "half-keeve", I am doing something different but with the
same general goal. I'll call mine a "poor-mans keeve". I've been
concentrating up the juices to at least 1.060 by Lee's freezing method
(I have different batches, up to 1.085). The concentration seems to
increase the likelihood of settling-out (you know, the old saturated
solution stuff from Chem 101). No sulphur added however. I am
fermenting with natural yeasts at 40F/5C in a fridge. Another one of
those Chem 101 principles: lower the temp and you lower the amount of
dissolved solids a solution will hold and induce more precipitation.
These pectin-y blobs form and eventually settle out as the fermentation
gets going. Also I have been racking a lot since there seems to be
continual settling. The juice doesn't get crystal clear, but its not
hazy, either. I hope to be able to stop the ferment early.
Also while I'm writing about the previous digest, there Andrew wrote:
> Sadly, i have some
> anecdotal evidence that even these BS cultivars, when grown in climates
> outside of the damp cold oceanic ones they came from (eg in much of the
> US), do not produce the high tannin levels that they do with us here in
> NW Europe.
This has been a concern of mine, being here in the hot eastern US.
Its one reason why I have been growing more French as opposed to
English cider apples, since there is more warmth in France. In fact
I'd like to try some of the Spanish ones but they are not to be found
here. There also may be reason to grow some of the particularly
high-tannin European cider apples in the US since they could end up
medium-tannin here.
For those of you growing European cider apples in the US, have you
noticed any of what Andrew is alluding to?
Scott
------------------------------
Subject: Cider haze
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 13 Dec 2002 20:12:44 +0000
Daniel asked:
.
>
> I made a simple cider around the middle of October (fresh pressed apple
> juice from a local orchard, plus some (rehydrated!;-) Lalvin-K1V-1116
> yeast -- nothing else!).
>
> The fermentation finished up a long time ago, but it steadfastly refuses
> to clear. I've racked it once already (fermented in glass carboys,
> racked into glass), hoping that the disturbance/mild air contact might
> kick off a clearing, but no joy.
>
Almost certainly pectin from the fruit. If you mix one-quarter cider
plus three quarters denatured alcohol (what we call methylated spirit
here in the UK) and you get a clot or a floc - it's pectin.
>
> Is there anything I can do now? I've got the usual assortment of
> finings (Isinglass, bentonite, PolyClar, gelatine). Can pectic enzyme
> help now, or is it way too late?
>
Well strictly speaking you should have added the enzyme before
fermentation! Those enzymes don't like alcohol. but you could try a
double or quadruple dose now for a couple of weeks and see what it
does. Otherwise - it's all about charge neutralisation to get a floc to
form. Pectin is negatively charged. So is bentonite - hence avoid
bentonite used on its own or the problem may become worse. Gelatin is
positively charged and might do the trick but do not over-fine or you
will get 'charge reversal' which intensifies and stabilises the haze.
See my website Part 6 of Science of Cidermaking for details. Polyclar
will be no help since that just removes tannins (which this probably
isn't). Chitosan may work if you can get some.
> Also, the taste is rather thin and tart - not very impressive, but
> probably not surprising given what I started with. Is there any way I
> can make it stronger (taste-wise)?
This often leads to disappointemnt. Why not sweeten to SG 1.015 and
pasteurise in crown cap bottles. That way you get some body back into
the flavour.. See my website for the Ag-Canada leaflet or Part 4 of
Science of Cidermaking.
Andrew Lea. nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: more on tannin
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 21:22:53 -0700 (MST)
I've swapped notes with a few people on Andrew Lea's comments about lack
of tannin in cider cultivars grown in the US, and also got a note from
Andrew on the topic. He explained some of the background for his
statement: See the note on LARS_vs_Geneva below. He had also tasted a
couple of US ciders which were made with traditional bittersweets, which
seemed lacking in expected amount of tannin.
Andrew had conjectured that the difference might have to do with generally
hotter summers and longer growing seasons over most of the US - which is
a plausible generalization. (I had wondered earlier what it was that most
of the US might have in common for climate, but different from SW England.)
But back to the questions about tannin.
There are two aspects to this matter: Does the _juice_ have tannin, and
do the resulting _ciders_ have notable tannic character?
As to the juice tannin content, Andrew referred to the studies of cider
cultivars done at Long Ashton and Geneva, NY, in which the Geneva results
show perhaps half the tannin of the LARS results. (See Andrew's web site
for the tables.) Andrew notes, and I tend to agree, that analytic methods
are perhaps not consistent between the two studies. Thus each study might
be internally consistent, yet the two are not comparable against one
another. I believe, especially given the surprising results, Occam's razor
suggests inconsistent technique, although it's still got to be treated as
an open question.
As for the ciders made with cider cultivars in the US: I've been tasting
various commercial US craft ciders recently, and I've had ciders from both
New England and the west coast which have the tannic character and flavors
similar to what I associate with English West Country ciders. They are
certainly not low in perceptible tannin, in any case. Without mentioning
names (in order to avoid a sin of omission) these have come from four
different cideries. The New England ciders in particular cast doubt on
comparing the LARS and Geneva results, since Geneva is not radically
different from New England in climate. (I have a feeling that is going
to offend somebody who will proceed to lecture me, but OK.)
Dick
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1010
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