Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #0978
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #978, 25 June 2002
Cider Digest #978 25 June 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Natural Yeasting (Andrew Lea)
Measuring tannin (Andrew Lea)
(David Martin)
Tannin Tests ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Travels in SW England (j/kbooth)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Natural Yeasting
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:19:54 +0100
Mark asked:
>would you consider it worthwhile to
> isolate and culture up useable quantities of Hanseniospora valbyensis yeast?
>
I doubt it, unless you want to study and publish a research paper on the
topic! You would almost certainly have to couple the initial
Hanseniospora (Kloeckera) fermentation with a subsequent Saccharomyces
one, so why not just use the natural succession anyway?. A number of
people in the wine and cider world have looked at this topic over the
years, and the main conclusions from the scientific literature seem to
be that pure Kloeckera fermentations are not of value (because of
flavour problems and their low ethanol tolerance) whereas the mixed
succession is. Trying to balance this succession by adding pure
cultures seems very difficult although it has been done in lab
fermentations.
There are many issues surrounding interactions between
the organisms and their different strain characteristics. One
interesting feature is that Kloeckera seems to be favoured by
low temperatures ( 4 - 10 C) which are just those prevailing in the
traditional cider areas of Northern Europe during the autumn / winter
fermentation period. Also, different authors seem to have different
views on the sulphite tolerance of Kloeckera - perhaps this is strain
or nutrient dependent.
>......... low level sulphiting to
> encourtage natural Hanseniospora valbyensis yeasts etc to grow happily. At
> what levels of free SO2 would you recommend for this?
>
I use about half to one-third of the 'textbook recommended'
level of sulphite addition for any given pH (i.e. aiming to achieve a
molecular SO2 level of maybe 0.3 ppm rather than 1 ppm). If the must pH
is lower than 3.5 I don't use sulphite at all. Empirically, this seems
to work for me, but I am not a yeast microbiologist so don't imagine
I've checked out the microbial succession formally, because I
haven't!! However, looking at the yeast lees at different stages of
lightly sulphited fermentations through a microscope, there is evidently
a pretty mixed population (including apiculate types) in the early days
or weeks, ending up as a pretty homogeneous Saccharomyces-like
morphology by the end. This is totally in accord with 'received wisdom'
for unsulphited fermentations.
The reasons I continue to sulphite at all (albeit at low levels) are:
1. I tried omitting sulphite entirely one year, and had some very bad
experiences with mould growth and irredeeemable taint problems!
2.I cannot shake off the training from my formative years! Although my
old boss Fred Beech, who did as much as anyone to introduce the rational
use of sulphite into the UK cider industry, did vouchsafe to me just
before he died that he thought sulphite was now over-used and it was
time to take a second look at how and where it was really needed.
Incidentally the synonym Hanseniospora valbyensis for what we used
to call Kloeckera apiculata only seems to be in use by French and
Spanish workers - the English-speaking world still keeps with
'Kloeckera'. As an amateur, I have no idea of the 'correct' taxonomy!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Measuring tannin
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 18:24:41 +0100
Mark asked
> How
> on earth is tannin measured and is it possible for the
> layman to accomplish?
I answered this already on the UK cider digest but since it may be of
general interest I repeat it here too:
Cider and perry tannin is traditionally assayed by the Loewenthal
permanganate titration. It doesn't really measure 'tannin', only
'permanganate oxidisable substances' but it's close enough for most
practical purposes. All the Long Ashton literature was based on this
assay which is over 100 years old. It could conceivably be done at home
because all you need is a burette, a couple of flasks, the right
reagents and a pair of eyes to judge the endpoint. A more modern and in
some ways preferable assay is the Folin-Ciocalteau but it is more
demanding to carry out and needs a spectrophotometer. Both methods are
described in winemaking textbooks.
Andrew Lea
------------------------------
Subject:
From: David Martin <david@airgeadstudio.net>
Date: Sat, 22 Jun 2002 15:44:50 +1000
Hi All
I have been doing some reading about yeast culturing. Does anyone in the
list have any experience with keeping yeast cultures? Especially long term
storage of frozen yeast?
I use White Labs or wyeast liquid cultures at the moment and as they are
fairly dear here on Oz, they make up a large part of the cost of each brew.
I figure as long as it's not too difficult/time consuming/risky, keeping a
culture of the yeasts I use frozen will save me a lot of money.
Thanks.
Cheers
Dave
- ------------------------
<http://www.airgeadstudio.net/>www.airgeadstudio.net
DNRC-Director General of the Smacking Your Head Against The Monitor In
Frustration Institute
Ineffables Effed
Inscrutables Scruted
------------------------------
Subject: Tannin Tests
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Sun, 23 Jun 2002 22:16:32 -0700
This seems to be a fairly complex subject, Cornell University has a page on
this subject. see:
http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/toxicagents/tannin/definition.html
------------------------------
Subject: Travels in SW England
From: j/kbooth <jameshbooth@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 08:43:44 -0400
Last summer I wrote of my visit to Hereford and the Bulmur
Cider Museum and my unsuccesful effort to contact
Cider producers.
Chomping on a "bait and switch" $198 rt fare to London, we
decided to take our 2nd grandaughter (age 11) to England/France
and will spend a week wandering from Avebury, Salisbury,
Sherborne, Plymouth, Wells, etc. If someone has "don't
miss" cider/real ale advices to share, they would be most
welcome.
Don't ask what airfare we ended up paying!
Right now the travel has more to do with the adventures
of Sir Walter Raleigh, the Mayflower, Camelot, the Magna
Carta, Stone Circles, and the Moors than farmhouse cider.
cheers, jim booth
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #978
*************************
