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Cider Digest #0964
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #964, 22 April 2002
Cider Digest #964 22 April 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
French ciders (Tim Bray)
Re: Quebec cider juice (Claude Jolicoeur)
what to call cider? ("Benjamin Watson")
US and Canadian cider list ("Benjamin Watson")
Malo-lactic cultures (Andrew Lea)
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Subject: French ciders
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 20:02:38 -0700
>I have thus far tracked down several very nice French ciders, but
>nothing from the US or England. My favorite so far is the Etienne
>Dupont 2000, which to me tastes like a Belgian wheat beer with an apple
>tang and considerable blue cheese aftertaste.
Wow... I'll have to try to find some of that!
As for others on your list, I have greatly enjoyed the Herout Fils (used to
be able to get it at Beverages & More for cheap) and the Duche'
deLongueville "Muscadet de Dieppe." And I definitely did NOT enjoy the two
bottles of Lecompte Pays d'Auge AOC that we got in the CDG duty-free; they
were strongly phenolic, not pleasant at all.
Cheers,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
in bloom: Golden Russet, Roxbury Russet, Margil, Rhode Island Greening,
Nehou, Hewes Virginia Crab, and Cox's Orange Pippin!
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Quebec cider juice
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 21:21:18 -0400
Brian wrote :
>Subject: Quebec cider juice
>From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
>Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:16:17 -0500
>
>I've long been a fan of Quebec ciders, and would very much like to try
>making cider from some good Quebec juice pressed from proper cider apples.
>The ones I have access to here in Manitoba simply don't give the proper
>taste that I'm looking for. Does anyone know of a source for Quebec cider
>juice?
Brian,
In Quebec, as far as I know, true cider apples are a rarity. Most
industrial ciders are essentially made with Cortland, McIntosh and Lobo.
However, artisanal cider makers would use other varieties mixed with the
standards (these would include russets, crabs, and others) - but each of
these cider makers probably has his own secret mixture and wouldn't really
want to share it. For my part, although I grow over 100 apple varieties
including some true cider ones, an important fraction of my production is
Cortland - and I think well grown Cortland apples make a very decent cider.
However, I can't answer your question on how you could buy good Cortland
juice in sufficient quantity in Manitoba...
Claude, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: what to call cider?
From: "Benjamin Watson" <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:39:19 -0400
Dick Dunn wrote:
> * What is the effect of labeling industrial ciders with only a small
> amount of juice content as "real ciders"? That is, is this doing more
> harm than good to the cause of quality cider? I think that you can
> argue that it hasn't done much harm, but only because CAMRA/APPLE
> apparently hasn't been especially effective and thus the label "real
> cider" doesn't carry any weight in the public mind.
I had never seen the term "real cider" before I used it in my book "Cider,
Hard and Sweet." Actually I applied it mainly as a distinction for sweet
cider, to indicate those that were not pasteurized and contained no
preservatives. But with the growing interest in hard cider, it applies to
that as well.
I agree with Dick that anything billed as "real cider" should contain 100%
juice. That is, the drink should be made from the raw (unpasteurized),
fresh-pressed juice of apples, and not from apple juice concentrate. This,
for me, is the main determinant of taste and quality. However, I would not
automatically exclude from the ranks of real cider those that are
bottle-pasteurized to halt fermentation (like Rhyne Cyder, Sonoma, CA);
those that are filtered to remove yeasts and halt fermentation (West County
Ciders, Colrain, MA); or those that are force-carbonated at bottling (like
Farnum Hill's Farmhouse Cider from Lebanon, NH). I also don't see how one
could eliminate sulfites, yeast nutrients, etc. from commercial ciders,
artisanal or not. And, now that I think of it, you might also make
exceptions to allow "natural" adjuncts added before primary fermentation
like raisins or other fruits or fruit juices. A bigger question is whether
to allow any honey or sugar or other adjuncts to be added before primary
fermentation, and if so how much.
I admit the term "real cider" is a bit squishy, like "natural foods," and
may be similarly co-opted by clever or unscrupulous industrial cidermakers.
But as long as there is a clear definition that can be used by small
cidermakers and consumers, I think it's still a useful term. If there's a
better one, I'm willing to use it.
------------------------------
Subject: US and Canadian cider list
From: "Benjamin Watson" <bwatson@monad.net>
Date: Thu, 18 Apr 2002 07:51:43 -0400
Scott Smith wrote:
> The subject of this note is that I have been trying without much luck to
> track down "real" ciders available in the US. I have made a list of
> everything which I know is available in the US. Some of them I found
> from the digest archives, so if it was mentioned here before, its
> probably on my list.
I have compiled over the past year or so a list of all the "artisanal" and
farmstead cidermakers that I could locate in the United States and Canada.
I'm sure I am missing lots of them, but I have been pretty diligent in
trying to bird-dog people who I know or those that been recommended to me.
There are a couple of cidermakers that are new as of this year and are just
now releasing their cider.
For the time being, I am willing to send this list as an attachment to
anyone who contacts me off-line (or send a hard copy via snail mail).
However, if people can wait, I am also going to post this through Slow Food
USA, and send them updated versions on a regular basis -- say, semiannually.
I will post the website address where you can find the list in the Cider
Digest.
The list does not include "industrial" cidermakers (Woodchuck, Cider Jack,
Hard Core, Seven Sisters, Ace, Wyder's, etc.), but if anyone has other
cidermakers they want me to check out for the list, please give me all the
contact information and I will add to my updated list.
Ben Watson
Francestown, NH
------------------------------
Subject: Malo-lactic cultures
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 11:01:36 +0100
We had a discussion about acidity lowering a few months ago. Has anyone
on the list ever actually added a wine-makers malo-lactic culture to
cider on a 'craft' scale and got it to work? Any observations on
dosage, time, temperature, start and end acidity etc? Any problems with
unwanted off=flavours developing?
I am contemplating doing this but I was curious to know what others
might have found, before I got started. I have read the scientific
literature on the topic but I want to know what happens when _real_
cidermakers try it!!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #964
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