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Cider Digest #0963
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #963, 17 April 2002
Cider Digest #963 17 April 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Quebec cider juice (Brian Lundeen)
Re: Cider Digest #962, 11 April 2002 (Mark)
Re: Why does CAMRA like diluted cider? ("Dave Matthews")
Real Ciders Available in US (Scott Smith)
re: CAMRA and real cider (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Quebec cider juice
From: Brian Lundeen <BLundeen@rrc.mb.ca>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 09:16:17 -0500
I suppose this is a longshot, but nothing ventured...
I've long been a fan of Quebec ciders, and would very much like to try
making cider from some good Quebec juice pressed from proper cider apples.
The ones I have access to here in Manitoba simply don't give the proper
taste that I'm looking for. Does anyone know of a source for Quebec cider
juice?
Thanks
Brian
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #962, 11 April 2002
From: Mark <scaffnet@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Apr 2002 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT)
- --- cider-request@talisman.com wrote:
>In the US, artesian
> cider is not an easy sell.
Hmm... I for one welcome the emerging artesian
cider movement! Now if I can just get a
well-driller to drill me my own artesian cider
well, I'd be all set!
;)
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Why does CAMRA like diluted cider?
From: "Dave Matthews" <dave.matthews7@btinternet.com>
Date: Sun, 7 Apr 2002 00:45:30 +0100
Dick,
What seems like a straight-forward question is actually not at all, and
you'll probably get a different answer from each person who answers. What
follows is my opinion, and mine alone...
You have to go back to the early 70s, when CAMRA was founded to protect
cask-conditioned ale. In those days it was simple - good beer contained live
yeast, poor beer did not. There was no need to look any further into the
production process, and sadly CAMRA has yet to move on from those simplistic
days. That's not to say that there are no people in CAMRA who want to look
at factors such as beer quality, but while policy is decided at an AGM
populated by the die-hard fanatic, nothing will change.
CAMRA's cider group, 'APPLE', is a minor sub-division of the overall beery
scheme of things. They have to follow the general policies of the Mother
group, and a break away is out of the question when you consider that
traditional cider and perry benefit from being sold at each of the numerous
country-wide CAMRA beer festivals throughout the UK. APPLE have made efforts
to differentiate between the 'industrial' Real Ciders and the 'natural' Real
Ciders, but this has proved ineffective without a similar classification for
ales (full malt or not, etc).
Does that answer your question?
Dave Matthews
------------------------------
Subject: Real Ciders Available in US
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Tue, 16 Apr 2002 22:41:15 -0400
Hi, I'm new to the Cider Digest. I am developing a home apple orchard
and got intrigued about all these strange-sounding cider apples which
led me to learn more about making cider, etc. It has quite fascinated
me and I am planting a small cider apple orchard this spring.
The subject of this note is that I have been trying without much luck to
track down "real" ciders available in the US. I have made a list of
everything which I know is available in the US. Some of them I found
from the digest archives, so if it was mentioned here before, its
probably on my list. It is at
http://www.cs.jhu.edu/~scott/US-ciders.htm
One of the goals of this list is something I can take to the excellent
wine shop in town to try to get them to special order some stuff. So,
I have also recorded importers. Additionally quite a bit is available
by mail-order and I have recorded that as well, even though it is
apparently illegal in many states? Please let me know if I missed
anything, I will update the list (its not in this email because I don't
want to immortalize my mistakes).
I have thus far tracked down several very nice French ciders, but
nothing from the US or England. My favorite so far is the Etienne
Dupont 2000, which to me tastes like a Belgian wheat beer with an apple
tang and considerable blue cheese aftertaste.
Cheers,
Scott
from Baltimore, Maryland, USA
------------------------------
Subject: re: CAMRA and real cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 18:16:46 -0600 (MDT)
Ben Watson wrote in CD 962:
> ...CAMRA did publish "CAMRA's Good Cider Guide" in 2000. The
> author/compiler, Dave Matthews, did a splendid job with this guide to pubs
> and producers that serve "good cider," which Matthews defines as:
>
> 1. Any draft or bottled cider that contains live yeast, a.k.a., "real
> cider."
>
> 2. Any filtered cider, draft or bottled, that conforms to the following
> criteria:
>
> * is not pasteurized
> * is not artificially carbonated
> * is made from 100% juice
> * is not made from concentrate
>
> These criteria would exclude a whole lot of American cider (even some very
> good ciders), which use either force carbonation or are bottle-pasteurized
> to halt bottle fermentation. But from strictly a purist's (and amateur
> cidermaker's) standpoint, I tend to agree with Dave's definition.
I agree that Dave has done a good job. I *really* wish I'd had his book
before our last trip to England.
BUT be sure you understand Dave's definitions. #2 says "100% juice" but
in #1 there's no premise of any minimum juice content. And yes, Dave did
verify that to me in email...#1 is basically CAMRA's definition of "real
cider".
I agree with Ben that to take a purist's point of view, it would be OK to
exclude ciders which are force-carbonated or pasteurized...BUT ONLY if the
standards ALSO require that the cider be made with apple juice! Dave's #2
category is strict-but-OK; it's #1 (from CAMRA) that has the giant loophole.
...
>...So, to conclude, my take on Dick's comments is that CAMRA isn't really that
> interested in cider, and that cider enthusiasts in England might be better
> served if they formed their own group...
There are a couple difficult-to-estimate considerations I see here:
* If CAMRA weren't involved, would some other group arise? It can be
difficult to get that sort of an organization started, and they can
easily be co-opted if they're not extremely careful about their ground
rules. So is CAMRA's APPLE occupying the niche of "cider advocate"
and preventing the birth of an organization which would actually
promote good cider? Or is it doing a job that nobody else will take
on, on the assumption that an ill-conceived or unbalanced advocacy is
better than none at all?
* What is the effect of labeling industrial ciders with only a small
amount of juice content as "real ciders"? That is, is this doing more
harm than good to the cause of quality cider? I think that you can
argue that it hasn't done much harm, but only because CAMRA/APPLE
apparently hasn't been especially effective and thus the label "real
cider" doesn't carry any weight in the public mind.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Mr. Natural says, "Get the right tool for the job."
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #963
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