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Cider Digest #1017
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1017, 12 January 2003
Cider Digest #1017 12 January 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Closures ("Peter Robinson")
Congratulations to cider makers! (Mark)
Re: Cider Digest #1016, 7 January 2003 ("Bill Rhyne")
Re: Calibrating hydrometers ("T. J. Higgins")
Tasting young cider ("Jason MacArthur")
Overpriming cider! (Andrew Lea)
pH and keeving (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #1015, 2 January 2003 ("Benedicte Rhyne")
Re: Calibrating Hydrometors (Claude Jolicoeur)
slow fermenting cider ("Jason MacArthur")
French cider microbiology (Warren Place)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Closures
From: "Peter Robinson" <PeterR@midsussex.gov.uk>
Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2003 16:41:53 +0000
Hi all,
Simple question - I have just bottled some of this season's still dry
cider in wine bottles and have used corks with a silicon coating in an
effort to improve quality and loss of cider through poor quality corks
that never seem to go in properly etc etc.
anyway - do I need to store these bottles on their side as is the
perceived wisdom of storing wine? or does the silicon coating prevent
the corks drying out and letting air in? - or should I just have used
the cheapest corks I could find and not be drawn in by slick silicon
marketing techniques!!
I expect to store the cider for up to a year in my garage in Southern
England if that makes a difference.
Cheers.
------------------------------
Subject: Congratulations to cider makers!
From: Mark <scaffnet@yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:09:29 -0800 (PST)
Congratulations to Farnum Hill, West County
Winery and Rhyne Cider, all of whom were featured
in the year-end Saveur magazine list of 100 great
food things! It's nice to see great cider makers
featured in national food magazines.
Mark Lattanzi
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1016, 7 January 2003
From: "Bill Rhyne" <rhyne@wli.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 09:48:56 -0800
RE: Fred Johnson's question on pasteurizing for sweetness and carbonation
This is one area where I feel that I can offer some comments as we( Rhyne
Cyder) have been doing this process since 1995 and have learned by trail
and error. Our first batch of cider was overprimed and the cider was very
exciting to open. We would loose 2/3 of the bottle as it shot about 8 feet
in the air.
Now at bottling, we blend in cider that has not fermented completely. The
specific gravity or sugar level is a personal preference decision as to what
sweetness level or carbonation level you are looking for. You have to figure
that out for yourself. After putting the bottle cap on, we store the bottles
in cases in a warehouse. If you can have a temperature controlled warehouse
it is better with more uniform and predictable results. We used warehouses
where it would heat up in the day and cool at night so we were at the mercy
of the weather in Sonoma. It was hard to figure when to schedule the
pasteurization this way. When we moved to a temperature controlled warehouse
(around 65 degree F), we averaged around 3-4 weeks time before the
carbonation developed appropriately for our tastes. Each batch is a little
different since we use a rolling recipe of apples in our blends. We found
the best way to decide to pastuerize was to open a bottle and listen to the
pfish! sound. One person told me it should sound like a nun's fart. It has
been a awhile since I have been around nuns so we did our own approximation.
Then, we pour a glass and observe the bubbles in action in a glass to see if
it is what we want. Then we taste, hmmmmmmmm. If it is the way we want, we
schedule to pastuerize in a few days. This all takes some practice.
The next issue is the technical issue for a small time producer on how to
efficiently pasteurize 360 champagne bottles of cider per bath. We came up
with 360 as that is what fit into a drain pan at the winery where we make
the stuff. Now we have fabricated a stainless steel bath with false bottom,
two in-ports for hot water, one drain port for the water, hoses going to a
pump that sends it back to a "Hotsy" ( portable water heater), then back to
the bath. The two ports help to distribute the hot water evenly as we were
having variation in the final product early on. We have four thermometers in
high and low areas of the bath to measure the water. The yeast are at the
bottom of the bottle so we want to get the heat down there and that takes a
while as most of the heat will be at the top part of the bottle initially.
After we have filled the bath with bottles and water with the water level
below the bottle caps but above the cider level in the bottle, we cover the
bath with a plastic tarp and insulation blanket to preserve the heat and for
safety. We occasionally have a bottle explode in the bath but the glass
stays in the water and drops to the bottom. We only use high quality
champagne glass for this process, not beer glass. Someone needs to monitor
continously the water level and the heat level so that they are stable. From
reading and experience, we feel we have achieved pastuerization if the the
contents hit 150 degrees F in the bottle for 10-20 minutes. We also open a
bottle and place a thermometer in one of the bottles to measure that
temperature. If is like making baby formula on a large scale for those of
you who remember your mother doing that or preserving jams or something.
After pasteurization, we take the bottles out to cool off and dry. Then we
put them back in the case, and schedule time to label the product.
If it sounds like a lot of work, it is and some people may call us crazy
which we are but the product has been well received around here by critical
tasters. Celebrator Beer News gave us a top rating in a blind cider judging
in August 2002 and we received a 1st place in cider category at the
California State Fair. Along with Farnum Hill and West County, we got a nice
plug from Saveur Magazine in the Jan/Feb 2003 issue on the newstands right
now. Turn to page 83 see their comment "Best use of apples yet" and a
picture of the three bottles.
We owe this result to Louis Pasteur's pioneering work of 140 years ago and
people before us. The bottom line is that we were following our taste buds
to make a product that we enjoyed and the people around us said that they
enjoyed. Another benefit of the process, the product is stable and so far
has an indefinite shelf life. We tasted some of our 1996 batch and it still
tasted very nice.
There you have it. For those of you who want to do small scale
pasteurization in your garage, barn, or cidery. It is possible without
having to spend $125,000 for a 7 step tunnel pastuerizer. Save this to your
disk as I am talked out now and will not be repeating this story for awhile.
Happy New Year!
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Calibrating hydrometers
From: "T. J. Higgins" <tjhiggin@mail.hiwaay.net>
Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 13:10:39 -0600 (CST)
Lee wrote:
>Am I wrong in thinking that you can check calibration of a hydrometor by
>putting water in it. Shouldn't plain water read exactly 1000 spec.
>gravity?
Even though a hydrometer reads correctly in water at the calibration
temp (usually around 60 degrees F), it can vary wildly the further
away from 1.000 it gets. A guy here in town has done extensive
research on hydrometer calibration and gives an easy procedure to
calibrate your hydrometer using nothing but salt and tap water.
http://www.knology.net/~sprevost/beerwine/
T.J. Higgins
Huntsville, AL
------------------------------
Subject: Tasting young cider
From: "Jason MacArthur" <jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 16:07:41 -0500
My October pressing of cider just reached dryness(1.005 SG), so I decided
to assess the vintage at this early state. The cider is very
acidic(+/-.083% total acidity expressed as malic acid) with a taste that
reminds me slightly of Vitamin C, and with a very slight sulfury egginess at
the back of the throat. I'm hoping for a malolactic fermentation and that
the egginess is just a yeast byproduct and that it will fade with time.
There's some nice fruit in behind the acid though- Happy cidering all!
------------------------------
Subject: Overpriming cider!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:10:11 +0000
Fred asked:
> Can anyone prescribe how much to "overprime" to provide the residual
> sweetness, how long to allow the yeast to condition the bottle (3 days?),
> how hot to heat the bottles?
The Ag-Canada booklet accessible via my website menu bar gives all the
details. They also suggest opening a trial bottle each day until the
correct level of carbonation is reached. I think that has to be much
wiser than any rule of thumb which could be wildly inaccurate and lead
to the danger of exploding bottles!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: pH and keeving
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 08 Jan 2003 22:15:04 +0000
Philip asked:
> Andrew - why does low ph make keeving difficult?
Three main reasons:
1. The pH optimum for the pectin methyl esterase which is critical to
keeving is around pH 6.6 (much higher than any juice) and it will be
much less efficient at lower pH. Hence apple juice keeving even under
the best conditions is 'on a knife edge' and the lower the pH the less
successful it is likely to be.
2. A low pH supresses the ionisation of the pectate anion whose
ionisation is critical to form a gelled complex with the calcium and the
positively charged amino acids. Hence the pectate does not form a
'chapeau brun' so well at low pH.
3. With wild yeast, it is probable that low pH will be inhibitory
because these are not 'trained' wine yeasts! And a certain amount of
incipient yeast fermentation is important in order to produce the CO2
which buoys up the gel to form a 'chapeau'.
Last but not least - empirically it is so! Juices with a pH of 4.0 -
4.5 (and sufficient pectin) will generally keeve OK. High acid (low pH)
juices do not keeve or do so very poorly.
The pH requirements for successful keeving (pH > 4) are in contrast to
those for a good clean fermentation (pH < 4). So what I sometimes do is
to keeve at the natural pH and then drop the pH after keeving, by adding
malic acid to the keeved juice for the main part of the fermentation.
Technological interference with a 'natural' process? Undoubtedly - and
I'm proud to admit to it! But then I add calcium and special enzyme
too!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1015, 2 January 2003
From: "Benedicte Rhyne" <winectry@ktc.com>
Date: Thu, 9 Jan 2003 14:12:16 -0600
Hello Benedicte Rhyne There from Rhyne Cyder (Bill's sister in law).
I was reading your comments on Tannins and Keeving and wanted to add a few
things.
There are no real good methods nowadays to exactly measure tannins in fruit.
A lot of research has been done in the wine industry, of course, but one of
the main problems is the origin and reliability of tannin standards. Most of
the tannins available to run standards are the Gallic Acids from oak. Those
do not represent the actual tannins present in grapes or apples making it
almost impossible to compare. Folin Ciocalteau analysis using those
standards for total phenols is a good way to get an idea but Residual sugars
will affect the analysis so it needs to be done on a dry cider and will not
be accurate on a juice sample.
Regardless of what I just enounced, we need to remember that cider making
does not need to be a precise science and all those analysis can be done
with the idea of just comparing and getting a general feel of the bitterness
of the different apples from year to year from your own place. That's how we
would use it at Rhyne Cyder. It would be ludicrous to try to compare from
one area to another because of the inaccuracy of the method.
On the keeving issue, I got a little confused with the comments. According
to my French books, keeving is a "natural cleaning" of the juice before
fermentation. The more tannins are present in the juice the more sense it
makes to have a keeving as it is the reaction of tannins and pectin that is
the core of keeving.
This reaction makes the juice solidify itself a little like a gel and
creates high suspensions of pectin that either floats to the top ( coagulum)
or settle to the bottom (lies). In the fining (up or down) the pectin/tannin
agglomerates take with them any mold, unwanted wild yeast and bacteria.
As soon as the juice shows signs of fermentation, the juice needs to be
racked immediately.
The operation of keeving (defecation) is carried at 65 F. In some part of
France they also add Calcium carbonate, Sodium Chloride or Sodium Carbonate
to help the keeving.
Thank you
Benedicte Rhyne
winectry@ktc.com
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Calibrating Hydrometors
From: Claude Jolicoeur <cjoli@gmc.ulaval.ca>
Date: Fri, 10 Jan 2003 19:00:00 -0500
Lee Elliot wrote:
>Subject: Calibrating Hydrometors
>From: applehilorchard@webtv.net (Lee Elliott)
>Date: Tue, 7 Jan 2003 07:17:04 -0600 (CST)
>Am I wrong in thinking that you can check calibration of a hydrometor by
>putting water in it</bold>. Shouldn't plain water read exactly 1000 spec.
>gravity? Lee Elliott
Sorry, Lee, but I can hardly imagine how you could put water in the
hydrometer... But if you put the hydrometer in distilled water at 60
degrees F, yes you should read 1.000 density.
On your other question about acidity, as you probably read in the
previous digest, an exact formula doesn't exist. This is because there
are different acids in apple juice, and different apples varieties have
different mixtures of acids. If all the apples in the world had exactly
the same proportion of malic, citric, tartaric and so on, then such a
formula could be exact. However, then, all apples would taste about the
same thing - which is not what we want...
Claude Jolicoeur, Quebec.
------------------------------
Subject: slow fermenting cider
From: "Jason MacArthur" <jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 19:32:03 -0500
I have a couple of batches of cider which are fermenting very slowly, and I
am wondering if anyone thinks I should be concerned about them or not. Both
are in 5 gallon carboys and were pressed on November 10th. The specific
gravity of the first, pitched with Champagne yeast, has dropped 27 points
since then. The second, pitched with Cotes-des-Blanc wine yeast, has fallen
37 points. All of the batches I made with Cider Yeast have fermented much
more quickly.
Interestingly, the two slow fermenting batches, the only two made with
"wine" yeasts, do not smell of sulphur as they ferment, while those for
which I used cider yeast have all had a strong sulphury smell as they
ferment, and so far the cider has retained a very slight aftertaste of
sulpher. Whether or not the apples are from fertilized trees or "wild"
trees does not seem to make a difference. This seems to contrast with the
experience of Charles McGonegal(cider digest 1/2/03) who speculated that
wine yeasts are more likely to produce sulpher under low N conditions.
------------------------------
Subject: French cider microbiology
From: Warren Place <wrplace@ucdavis.edu>
Date: Sat, 11 Jan 2003 20:19:51 -0800 (PST)
Hello all,
I just got back from a trip to Normandy. I visitted some cider
farms while there and brought back some cider. Now I'm wondering if
anybody has tried culturing the microbes from these ciders to use as a
starter? I'd love to hear if anybody has had any luck with this method.
Experience tels me that it works well for beer, so why not juice? Also,
did you isolate everything on apple juice agar plates and feeze
morphologically different isolates to be mixed together for the starter?
I have no idea if these microbes can outcompete the native flora of my
must, so I first plan to try fermentation of pasteurized juice. I know
that this might be like putting triple-dipped chrome rims on a Ford pinto,
but it's worth a shot. Another option I may try next year is to grow a
large, healthy starter and inoculate a local must. Maybe the mix of
French and US microflora will produce something interesting.
Warren Place
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1017
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