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Cider Digest #1015
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1015, 2 January 2003
Cider Digest #1015 2 January 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Tannins ("Murdo Laird")
Why no foam? ("KEITH HALTERMAN")
tannins (Bob and Winnie)
What is keeving? (Andrew Lea)
Lee Elliott's questions (Tim Bray)
technical vs nontechnical (Tim Bray)
sources for sweet cider in CA (Tim Bray)
Re: Cider Digest #1014, 31 December 2002 ("Bill Rhyne")
freeze dried fruit (Bob and Winnie)
Fire and brimstone ("McGonegal, Charles")
techical, non-technical, & yeast issues (Michael Hartsock)
Acidity measurements ("Jason MacArthur")
two things keeving is _not_ (Dick Dunn)
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Tannins
From: "Murdo Laird" <murdo@napanet.net>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 15:43:14 -0800
It would be great to find out how the Vinquiry "Total Phenols" test
relates to the LARS and other (Cornell, WSU?) methods. I know that
Andrew Lea has written about the difficulties of accurately measuring
tannin in at least one of his publications. And, I'm sure there must be
some differences between the compounds present in (sometimes heavily
extracted) wines versus cider.
Terry Maloney's results, as posted in the last digest, are very close to
my own JUICE tests of last year. Using the same test, at the same lab,
they were: Nehou 1479 mg/L, Kingston Black 640 mg/L, and Black Twig 582
mg/L. The New England climate is, of course, quite different from ours
here in California (much more "oceanic" I would say).
Terry included the average wine tannins for two red wines, I would like
to add that the average result for Chardonnay (which can more closely
resemble some cider) is between 300 and 400 mg/L, or somewhere between a
fifth and a half of that measured in my must samples. It should also be
noted that all of the wine results would include oak tannins picked up
during the aging process, whereas none of these particular cider results
do (as far as I know).
I would also comment that the tannins we TASTE in the fruit may not be
the one's that produce the complexity and finish we are looking for in
the final drink. For example you can happily eat bunches of Zinfandel
grown just across the street from my totally inedible, instant-spitter
Nehou. However, no one would argue that the finished cider has as much
apparent tannin as the wine (would they?).
So, I guess if there's a question here it is this; we know about soft
and hard (AKA bitter and astringent) tannins, but what about those
obvious in the taste of fresh fruit versus in the taste of finished
cider? What are the differences (if there are any), and how can the
compounds responsible for each be reliably measured in an
internationally standardized manner?
Murdo Laird
Murdo's Farmhouse Cider
Napa Valley, California
http://murdos.com <http://murdos.com/>
------------------------------
Subject: Why no foam?
From: "KEITH HALTERMAN" <keithray@pgtc.com>
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2002 18:09:36 -0600
I had an unusual experience with my second batch of cider this year.
I've been making cider for a number of years now with pasterized juice
(cider) from local orchards. I started this batch inside at room
temperature, two jugs with cote de blanc yeast and two with ale yeast.
The cider started bubbling in about 24 hours but the usual brown cap
never formed. I've racked it several times so far because there seems to
be more than the usual amount of lees in the bottom. Any ideas?
Also since we seem to be on the subject of tannins I was wondering if
anyone had any experience adding other types of high tannin juice to
their cider such as juneberries, elderberries or persimmons.
Keith
------------------------------
Subject: tannins
From: Bob and Winnie <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 10:24:30 -0700
One way to learn about the effects of tannins is to use examples that
most readers are familiar with. A good rule of thumb for estimating
tannins in wines is the color. Generally, white wines are quite low in
tannins while dark wines are much higher. The highest phenol content I
remember seeing in a wine was from a petite syrah at a whopping 4059
(GAE mg/l). Cab Sauv, Pinot Noir and other dark wine grapes will be high
also. White wines and ciders will be comparatively low. I would bet that
Martinelli's would weigh in at about 100.
So one way that readers with no Dabinett juice or cider can get some
idea of the effects of tannins in beverages is to think about how they
affect wines.
Tannins (or phenols) are the very things that make a beverage healthy
and that is why I am interested in them, but lots of folks simply do not
like the taste of these in their drink. If you are a person who turns
down a hearty Cab for a lighter wine the chances are that you will not
like very many tannins in your cider.
The other aspect of fermentation that greatly affects tannin (or phenol)
levels is the length of time that the juice is in contact with the skins
and seeds of the fruit. It would be useful to know if Terry's results
(below) were from free run juice. I would suspect that the keeving
process would increase tannin levels because of the increased contact
between the juice and the pulp, seeds and skins.
As far as the testing techniques go, I would bet that Vinquiry is using
the "total phenols by F&C" with the results being expressed as Gallic
acid equivalents in mg/l (GAE mg/l). This method is the most commonly
used worldwide and the most useful for comparisons.
Bob Sorenson, Native WInes
> Subject: Subject: Tannin content
> From: Terry Maloney
> Date: Tue, 24 Dec 2002 19:11:53 -0500
>
> We asked a wine lab (Vinquiry, Healdsburg, CA) to measure tannins in
> some of our ciders '93 & '94. What they actually measured were Total
> Phenols, which seem to have something to do with tannins. Some of the
> results:
> In '93
> Baldwin 490 ppm Total Phenols
> Macintosh 334 ppm
> Dabinett 1300 ppm
> Tremlett's Bitter (Geneva) 1116 ppm
>
> In '94
> Baldwin (juice) 356 ppm
>
> For comparison, in that lab, Merlot was running 2200-3000 ppm Total
> Phenols, and Zin about the same.
>
> I think its interesting, but its important to keep in mind, as Philip
> Sugarman pointed out in the last digest (Cider Digest #1012), taste is
> the best guide to making good cider.
>
> Terry Maloney
> West County Cider
>
> ------------------------------
>
------------------------------
Subject: What is keeving?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 17:53:29 +0000
Diane / Denis asked about keeving and Derek raised the question of
traditional French cider again. So here goes!
Keeving is a traditional French and English technique for achieving a
sweet, low alcohol and naturally sparkling cider. It is effectively
obsolete in England even amongst craft cidermakers (apart from the
efforts of a few cranky hobbyists!), but is still widely used in France
and has been adapted in that country alone onto a factory scale (by
means of refrigerators, centrifuges, special enzymes, nitrogen flotation
systems etc.)
The apples must be bittersweet, low acid (pH>3.8), high in gravity
(SG>1.055), fully ripe / aged and from low nitrogen (unfertilised)
orchards. No added yeast or nutrients must be used. The temperature
needs to be about 5C (40F) throughout and is therefore carried out
around December time with mature late season apples.
After milling, the fruit pulp usually stands for 6-8 hours (maceration)
to allow soluble pectin to diffuse out into the juice. The pulp is then
pressed and the juice is run into lightly sulphited vats. At this time a
special pectic enzyme and calcium salts are nowadays often added -
traditionally the natural levels of these materials did the work. After
about 5 days, the pectin becomes demethylated by the enzyme and forms a
flocculent complex with the calcium. The incipient wild yeast growth
provides tiny bubbles of carbon dioxide which raise the floc to the top
(le chapeau brun) while other sludge drops to the bottom, thus leaving a
brilliant clear juice in between (defecation). The floc takes away most
of the yeast and the nitrogenous compounds which would stimulate yeast
growth. The whole exercise is designed to achieve a very slow
fermentation indeed.
The clear juice is then racked off (without aeration) to a tank where
fermentation continues in the cool for about 3 months. The cider is
bottled around April on a day of high barometric pressure with residual
sugar at an SG of around 1.015 - 1.020. A very slow yeast growth
continues in the bottle so that by mid to late summer the cider is
'conditioned' with a light sparkle and is ready to drink.
More info at
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea/part4.htm#keeving
and in the Proulx and Nichols book page 80, and in Ben Watson's book
page 131.
And - just to stress this point - plenty of good ciders are made without
keeving. It's only one way among many!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Lee Elliott's questions
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 09:16:08 -0800
Hi Lee! Although I am far from an expert, I'll take a stab at answering
some of your questions:
>Does using plastic carboys or plastic milk jugs
>impart a plastic flavor to cider if made or stored in same?
I haven't noticed that problem with fresh juice. But with fermented (or
fermenting) cider, the bigger problem is oxygen passing through the plastic
and allowing oxidation. In the worst case this can lead to acetification.
> When they
>say top off, do they mean use more sweet cider or fermented cider?
If topping-up a fermenting cider, I use juice (sweet cider). If I rack
after fermentation for bulk aging, I'll top up with sweet juice as well;
the additional fermentation consumes whatever oxygen gets
introduced. Oxygen is the enemy!
> Do
>you sulfite this cider used to top off?
Not if the fermentation is active. But I have found that I can keep fresh
juice in the fridge for months by sulfiting at about 100 ppm; this keeps it
stable, and sometimes clarifies it, so that it is available when I need it
for topping-up.
> Is there a
>problem fermenting half a carboy with half air in it?
Yes, I think so. It might ferment just fine, but if you leave it in there
when fermentation is done, the chance of "suckback" is high (air being
sucked through the fermentation lock as the carboy cools off). This will
lead to acetification.
> Am I risking
>contamination by acetobacter every time I sample cider so keep sampling
>to a minimum or not at all?
I'll be interested to see others' answers to this one. My feeling is that
the acetobacter are there already, unless you pasteurize. As long as there
is no oxygen available, though, they will not grow. So the real issue is
not contamination, but aeration. If you prevent aeration, you will not
have acetification. IMHO.
As long as fermentation is active, the yeast will probably consume any
available oxygen before the bacteria get going. The critical periods are
before fermentation starts (when mold is my enemy) and after it stops (when
acetification is the risk).
> Should I sterilise my wine thief every time
>and what do I use to sterilise it?
It's a good idea. I use Iodophor, or any other brewer's sanitizer.
>Will it ruin cider to jug it and
>freeze it for long periods like I do sweet cider?
Why would you want to? It improves with age for a couple of years;
freezing would probably prevent that.
> I'm kind of gun-shy
>because I've had batches go bad and no idea what I did wrong.
The only difference between you & me is that I have an idea what I did
wrong! :-)
My bad batches were caused by: 1. Using apples that had been stored too
long; 2. Waiting too long for a spontaneous ferment that did not occur;
3. Failing to sulfite before waiting for the fermentation; 3. Fermenting
in a plastic carboy. Numbers 1, 2, and 3 allowed too much mold growth, and
#4 let oxygen in after fermentation was over, causing acetification. End
result was sour, bad-tasting cider.
Hope this helps! (By the way, the trees you sold me a couple years ago are
doing great, except for the HMJ, and I expect first fruit next fall! )
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net
------------------------------
Subject: technical vs nontechnical
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 08:43:37 -0800
> I wonder if some of the expressed conflict between "technical" and
>"nontechnical" is actually a conflict between "simple" and "elaborate".
Maybe, although I think that would be a confusion - the technical
discussions apply just as much to simple techniques as to elaborate
ones. For instance, the ongoing discussion of tannins/phenols is very
technical, but has nothing to do with elaborate cider-making. It's about
the juice!
But is there really a conflict? I've only seen one person express any
displeasure at the "technical" content of this list.
Cheers,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: sources for sweet cider in CA
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 08:34:07 -0800
Welcome to sunny CA! It is increasingly difficult to find unpasteurized
cider here; the Odwalla incident and subsequent regulatory actions have
made it hard to sell the stuff. Your best bet will be local Farmer's
Markets - there should be good ones in that area. There is a good apple
orchardist in Watsonville who sells a large variety of fruit, including
some old varieties, at farmer's markets in the Bay area. I don't know if
he sells juice, though.
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1014, 31 December 2002
From: "Bill Rhyne" <rhyne@wli.net>
Date: Wed, 1 Jan 2003 14:38:42 -0800
RE: Keeving and tannins
An observational and less technical way to observe the presence of tannin in
an apple is to bite into it and taste it. When we bit into a Nehou and a
Yarlington Mill apple (bittersweets), it tasted like Lipton tea flavored
with apple. Then lay the apple done for awhile and look the area where the
flesh is exposed. It will turn brown rapidly if there is a lot of tannin in
the apple. When we were researching apples here in Sonoma County, we would
go to the store or apples stands and buy 5-10 varieties and do tastes
comparisons this way. I took pictures of the apples to compare the browning.
A Granny Smith will not turn brown but a Gravenstein will. That is the
oxidization through exposure to air.
As for those of your that want to observe keeving (settling), go to the
supermarket to the juice aisle where you can find gallon jars of apple juice
that is unfiltered. The sludge or solid stuff in the bottom of the jar is a
result of keeving. The solids separate from the juice and drop to the
bottom. If you have a 5 gallon jar of juice that you want to ferment, you
would rack the clear part in the middle out of the jar and leave the solids
on the bottom and the floating suds behind. This clarifying natural process
happens differently with different types of apples. If some people are not
successful with their apple's clarifying, people use pectin enzymes to help
clarify the juice before fermentation.
Andrew's comments about variation in apples' tannin levels are supported by
comments our local farmers have told me about their crops. In Sebastopol,
the apples can vary from farm to farm due to local micro climates as well as
farming techniques.
My understanding of the importance of tannin in a beverage is that it helps
to clarify juices and suppress potential for cider sicknesses due to
bacteria. I travel to China regularly and I drink their tea and they swear
by it to promote good health. I think that that tannin in cider, wine, beer,
tea, and so on served the needs of people for thousands of years before
clean tap water became available. In developing countries, safe drinking
water is still difficult to source so tea, beer, wines, coffee help keep
people healthy.
Anyway, a few comments from Sebastopol apple country....
Aloha!
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder
------------------------------
Subject: freeze dried fruit
From: Bob and Winnie <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Wed, 01 Jan 2003 20:59:28 -0700
In response to John;
One of my favorite fermentations (and customers too) is from a stand of
crabapples planted along a city street. As you go out walking, just
sample all the edible fruit you can find along the way. Sometimes the
fruit will be favorably changed by the freezing action.
My advice would be to watch out for any "vinegary" flavors, and don't
boil the fruit as you will lose alot of the flavor. Also, I wouldn't
grind the fruit but simply mash it a little as it is probably quite
mushy from the freezing. I have used "freeze dried" elderberries,
rosehips and crabapples with great success.
Good luck,
Bob Sorenson, Native Wines
> Subject: Freeze dried fruit
> From: "John A. Ray"
> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2002 10:19:39 -0700
>
> Greetings and happy new year!
>
> I've spotted lots of trees in and around our area with considerable
> fruit still hanging...of course this stuff is likely "freeze-dried" in
> our Colorado climate. This year I hadn't had time during the normal
> harvest season to make any new cider ...and my wife quickly points out
> that I have "MANY" carboys yet to drink...I have just now thought of
> gathering some of this "fruit" to experiment with and was wondering if
> anyone has tried to make a palatable drink from anything like this...I
> was going to gather fruit, grind and boil it to see what kind of liquid
> I would get, but didn't want to anoy my wife with a delayed invasion of
> the kitchen if it would all turn out for nought.
>
> Any help, comments greatly appreciated!
>
>
------------------------------
Subject: Fire and brimstone
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 08:15:32 -0600
Well, brimstone at least. Or rather hydrogen sulfide.
This may not be news to experienced cider-crafters (would that be a
'pomurgist'?) - but I was recently bitten by this issue and would like to
toss in a few cents worth.
This fall I tried a new yeast strain on a cider and a perry. Based on a
hint in one of the cider making texts, I tried a Sauterne yeast. (Lalvin
R2). I don't practice one of the low-nitrogen traditional methods, but
neither do I add nitrogen in the form of yeast nutrients. I usually use
Lalvin EC1118 - and have never had problems with slow or stuck
fermentations.
The fermentation in question seemed to proceed smoothly, and I racked them,
as I normally do, as the primary ferment slows and the 'white cap' has
fallen. To my dismay, a few weeks later both batches absolutely stink of
sulfer - the poor perry being worst off.
I've got them treated at this point, but after much discussion with other
wine makers and labs, the general consensus is that low nitrogen is the
(most probable) culprit. Lack of key amino enzymes can cause a yeast to
switch metabolism and produce excess H2S - without stopping yeast growth or
fermentation. It depends on fruit nutrients, yeast strain, and the standard
set of 'random factors' :-) Adding nitrogen (usually) helps prevent H2S
from forming in the first place.
The reason I'm relating this story here is the great interest shown on the
Digest in traditional cider making techniques that also happen to be
low-nitrogen techniques. Many practioners also use the native flora on the
apples to do the fermentation. Andrew L. has suggested that the native
apple yeasts may be better adapted to low-N conditions - especially compared
to grape yeasts.
I guess I'd like to suggest caution when experimenting with yeast strains
under low-N conditions. Sulfer doesn't exactly make for a delicate bouquet
:-)
Charles McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: techical, non-technical, & yeast issues
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 06:51:19 -0800 (PST)
I would like to report that my first batch of cider is
in the bottles. It is a still, sweetened cider
(though by design it was to be a sparkling semi-dry).
While its not going down in the books as a great
success, I wouldn't call it a complete failure. I
credit the knowledge I gained from this digest as
keeping it from being a horrible failure. My second
batch, meant to be a dry sparkling cider (and this
WILL come to pass!!!) Anyhow, thanks for technical
and non-technical responses.
A question about pasteurized cider, which is all I
have acess to. Has anyone considered harvesting the
yeast from a naturally fermented cider as to use it to
innoculate pasteurized cider do duplicate the profiles
of naturally produced cider. If so, what are the best
methods. Should I isolate the cider on an PDA plate
or wash the lees and harvest the yeast in that manner?
I was thinking about allowing fresh apple sauce to
ferment and harvesting the yeast from that to use in
my larger batches of pasteurized cider.
On aside, while I have no interest in HPLC or wet chem
methods for tannin assays (I made my living a while
doing Pharmo-kinetic LC-MS/MS assays, so in no way do
I want my hobby reflecting that horrible job!) I think
that we all just have to respect everyones unique and
preferred level of involvement. Several beer brewing
lists I'm on are having similiar conflcits, but the
way I see it, if the newbies (a group to which I
belong) don't want to be scoffed at by the more
advanced cider makers, then the newbies have to give
the more expert list members room to discuss a levels
of topics.
------------------------------
Subject: Acidity measurements
From: "Jason MacArthur" <jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 02 Jan 2003 13:19:41 -0500
I am curious as to how to convert total acid expressed as tartaric acid into
total acid as malic acid. My titration kit reveals the former, I would like
to know the latter. I think I need a conversion factor, does anyone know
what this is? Can it be assumed that a cider with a high total titratible
acidity has a low pH, even if one cannot know one by knowing the other?
Thank you all,
Jason MacArthur
jasonmacarthur@hotmail.com
------------------------------
Subject: two things keeving is _not_
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Thu, 2 Jan 2003 15:57:11 -0700 (MST)
Recent Cider Digests plus discussions off-list have pointed out to me that
there are a couple misunderstandings about what keeving is/is-not:
1. Keeving is not merely allowing solids and grunge to settle out.
That happens with any freshly pressed juice.
2. Keeving is not the formation of a foamy brown cap. That pretty
much happens anyway.
Both of these--the settling and the brown foam--are necessary, but not
sufficient, conditions for keeving.
The second is the more unfortunate misconception, since one of the catch-
phrases for the mystical event of keeving is that "chapeau brun". But
really, if you've got normal fresh juice, not severely filtered, you've
got a lot of particles which are just barely suspended in the juice. Some
of them will settle out, even over the matter of an hour or two after
pressing. As soon as fermentation starts, bubbles of CO2 will attach to
a lot of what's in suspension and even some of what has settled out, and
will lift this grunge to the top to form a dirty foam.
Conventional wisdom is to keep the fermenter full enough that this foam
can be pushed up and skimmed, wiped off, or taken off with a large-diameter
tube (the way homebrewers do a "blowoff"). It won't help either the
clarity or the taste of the cider to let this stuff fall back into the
fermenter when the fermentation rate drops back down. And, presumably, it
carries off some of the available nitrogen, thereby slowing the fermenta-
tion rate, which is a Good Thing. And of course you can rack out of the
middle, between the sludge and the foam. But it's still not keeving.
___
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1015
*************************
