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Cider Digest #1003
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1003, 10 November 2002
Cider Digest #1003 10 November 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Basic Cider question (Michael Hartsock)
Re: Cider Digest #1002, 8 November 2002 (km)
first batch help. ("Jeremy")
Tradition ("Hartsock, Michael D.")
Re: concentrating cider by freezing (Scott Smith)
Lambic flavours in French cider? (Andrew Lea)
Sorbate not effective? (Andrew Lea)
progress? (mike tomlinson)
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Subject: Basic Cider question
From: Michael Hartsock <xd_haze@yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 12:35:35 -0800 (PST)
I recently made my first 5 gallon batch of cider from
locally produced cider. The OG was about 1.048.
Using dark brown sugar and a little clover honey, i
brought the gravity to 1.76. I pitched freeze dried
Winsor ale yeast and after 96 hours, it never started.
I then pitched pasteur champange yeast and
fermentation started within 4 hrs. Here is my
question, after two weeks in the primary, I racked it
to the secondary. The gravity at this point was 0.996
and it tasted quite sour, but not vinegary. Will this
mellow out? If so, how long should I expect it to sit
in the secondary and then the bottle? Are these
typical results for cider made with champagne yeast?
Any input would be helpful. I'm a new brewer (just a
few batches of beer under my belt). Thanks.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1002, 8 November 2002
From: km <marshall@maritime-photos.com>
Date: Fri, 08 Nov 2002 22:33:48 +0100
Hi, I'm a Newby here.
I think I may be the only one here in Germany. Just wanted to comment on
the French Route de Cidre in the Pays d'Auge. I was there and toured it
this summer and can recommend it but if you have the opportunity, try to
get to Britanny and sample the cider there as well. I had heard a lot
about Norman cider and was impressed with it enough to plan a trip to
the Pays d'Auge as a side-trip to visiting a traditional ship festival
in Brittany. While in Britany though, I quite by accident, stumbled on
some excellent ciders. Many were, in my opinion, much better than most
of those I tasted in Normandy. A bit sharper and more full bodied.
By far the best cider I tasted during my trip was from the Cider Museum
production in Pleudihen, simply called "Cidre Fermier Brut"
Adress is:
Jean Yves Prie et Fils recoltants
22690 Pleudihen, France
Hope you have a nice trip
Kurt
------------------------------
Subject: first batch help.
From: "Jeremy" <jeremy@uploadjoe.com>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:56:26 -0700
Hey gang,
I started my first batch of cider 12 days ago.
After 10 days fermentation fizzled out and I
racked to secondary. The o.g. was 1.055 and at
racking the s.g. was less than 1.000.
I put in pectic enzyme about 3 hours before
pitching the yeast. I used a 500 ml starter
made from a package of Munton's ale yeast.
5 gallons of sweet cider
2 1/2 lbs of raisins
2 Tbs of pectic enzyme
My questions are:
#1: it is still very cloudy. I was under then
impression the pectic enzyme would help clear
the cider. Should I do something or just be
patient.
#2: the taste was fairly harsh. alcohol and acidic.
I just received my malo-lactic culture today and I
will pitch it tonight. Hopefully it takes and helps
mellow the cider. Should I do anything else? I also
have a feeling that it will mellow with age. I brewed
an Apple Ale once and it tasted bad at bottling and
great at 6 months.
#3: if I need to sweeten the cider at bottling (a sin
I know, but I am going to share with some people that like
something more 'commercial') what can I use at bottling
to sweeten it up if I need to?
Thanks guys. I got some cider books coming from Amazon.com
hopefully they will help expand my knowledge.
One last thing I saw some "apple juice" in the grocery store
it was labeled "no preservatives". Anyone ever try using this
stuff?
Feel free to email me your suggestions: jeremy@uploadjoe.com
Thanks,
Jeremy
------------------------------
Subject: Tradition
From: "Hartsock, Michael D." <hartsockm@health.missouri.edu>
Date: Fri, 8 Nov 2002 16:05:07 -0600
Hello all:
I'm a new subscriber and not at all experienced with cider (as a matter
of fact i posted a few hours ago concerning my difficulties with my
first batch). This post is concerning more esoteric problems. I have
been perusing the posts about the failure of cider to see a renaissance.
I decided to make cider (and will continue to try, try again) after the
local winery quit production of its proprietary cider and replaced it at
their wine garden with Bud light of all things. I realized this when I
sent my fiancee to retrieve a bottle of her favorite red and a
"draft." Formerly, this was a sufficient description. But I took my
glass from her hand and without looking took a big slug. IT WAS BUD
LIGHT. Sorry, this is rather anecdotal, so I'll digress. They quit
production because it wasn't selling. Why was it not popular, it was
terrific and available at several local restaurants. Distribution
wouldn't be a problem, their wines have statewide distribution, but the
cider was not selling. It disappoints me that something with such a
long American tradition is nearly forgotten. What can be done at the
home production level to increase awareness? I really feel that if more
people would try cider, it popularity would be revived.
On a more personal note, I truly feel that the drinking age in the US
should be lowered (so that problem drinking would be lowered along with
it). Frankly, my children will know how to make cider (assuming I
figure it out!) long before they can legally drink it.
Michael Hartsock, RLT
University of Missouri-Columbia
hartsockm@health.missouri.edu
------------------------------
Subject: Re: concentrating cider by freezing
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Sat, 9 Nov 2002 01:11:37 -0500
There was a discussion of concentrating cider by freezing a few digests
back, with two methods proposed: Lee Elliott's method of thawing and
siphoning off the watery top 1/4, and Dennis Henry's method of letting
it thaw at just above freezing and dripping off the liquor. I have
some fairly watery juice that I decided to concentrate by Lee's method
and wanted to give a couple comments on how its been going.
One batch of mostly Gala (hey they were cheap) I decided to siphon away
the top 1/2, and I got to a gravity of 1.090. This stuff has the most
amazingly rich buttery flavor. It has fermented for six weeks so far
and looks like it will come out well. I am fermenting in a fridge at
40 degrees F with the natural yeasts; a bit of malic acid was added
given the high pH of the Galas. One thing I like about the high
gravity is it seems to clarify very well on its own. My hope is the
high gravity will also make it easier to get a sweet final product,
since the higher alcohol at the end will help my sulphite attenuate the
yeast. We'll see on that.
One batch of particularly watery Jonagolds I siphoned away the top half
on as well. This juice still tastes sort of boring even though the
sugars got up to 1.085. I made a mistake of acidifying the juice
before concentrating, and its too acid so will need to mix. Moral:
make all corrections *after* concentrating.
So, from these two tests my feeling is if I hadn't done the
concentrating I would have some pretty boring cider on my hands given
the apples I have to work with. I plan on concentrating all my juice
this fall, maybe not all the way up to 1.090 but to 1.070 at least.
Next up: more Jonagolds, Grimes, Newtowns, and Stayman.
Siphoning away the top half may sound like a waste, but I found the
watery stuff is still an enjoyable light drink in place of water. So,
I just put it in the family fridge and it gets drunk. It seems to have
about the same level of flavor as store-bought apple juice, but with
less sugar (1.020 range). Also its keeping longer due to the dilute
nature.
One thing I dont fully understand is how the separation occurs.
Clearly the watery ice floats toward the top and the heavier
first-thawed juice heads down, but I wonder if any more separation can
occur after its all thawed (seems like not to me?) One reason why I
took a full 1/2 off at one shot instead of re-freezing is a big chunk
of the top looked watery. I plan to take fractions as an experiment to
see how the juice concentrates as more is siphoned off.
Scott
PS I just picked up some 2002 Reserve Cider from Dupont at my local
liquor store this week. It has been aged for six months in Calvados
casks. Very mellow stuff! Its distributed in the US by the same
people doing his cider, B. United International.
------------------------------
Subject: Lambic flavours in French cider?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 08:46:55 +0000
Matt asked:
> For
> the most part, all were pretty tainted with heavy lactic, phenolic, and
> acetobacter character. ..... are all
> these ciders supposed to taste like out of control Belgian Lambic beers?
Well they certainly shouldn't taste like lambic beers or sourdough
bread! On the other hand there's no doubt that these styles of French
cider do (and should) have distinct 'phenolic' notes which would be
regarded as unacceptable in a grape wine, for instance. If you are
unused to them it comes as a bit of a shock! One of my (best!)
French-style ciders was described by a friend as 'tasting of smoky
bacon' - which I took as a compliment but she meant as a criticism!.
'Chacun a son gout' as the French themselves say. However, it does
sound as if the ciders you bought were rather OTT. There is a balance
in all things and it sounds as if these were rather too far gone. It is
quite possible that a continued bacterial fermentation has taken the
cider further than it should. I suspect that most of these French ciders
are best in the year after making and will have a tendency to 'wander'
after that! If they've been stored warm for a period, or brought across
the Atlantic on a container which has suffered huge extremes of heat and
cold in transit as they often do, this will not help either, since the
bacteria really wake up above 15 C.
I am drinking a naturally conditioned French-style (all bittersweet)
cider of my own just at present which is two years old and probably
verges on what you would regard as unacceptable. It has certainly
continued to 'develop' in bottle! On the other hand I've just finished a
three-year old blend (not pure bittersweet) of otherwise similar style
which is much 'fresher'. To me, this speaks of the inadvisability of
making ciders from pure bittersweets - blending is the cidermaker's art!
It may be just as simple as getting the pH right to keep those bacteria
under control!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Sorbate not effective?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 09 Nov 2002 09:57:13 +0000
Doug asked
> Finally, things slowed down so I
> racked the cider into another carboy, added another gal of fresh cider and
> some potassium sorbate. The potassium sorbate was supposed to stop a second
> fermentation - it didn't! What should I do?
You may have been somewhat optimistic here. Sorbate (even at 200 ppm)
will not stop an active fermentation. Adding new fresh sweet cider with
its own new yeast inoculum wouldn't help much either. Ideally, the
fermentation should have gone totally to dryness, maybe stored a couple
of months, and been racked or filtered again before adding the sorbate
and the extra sugar. Even then, success is not assured. If the pH is
high and any nutrients are still present, fermentation could begin again
if viable yeast cells are present. The yeast load has to be minimal
before sorbate has any chance. The addition of sulphite with the
sorbate may help to make the sorbate more effective too.
What to do now? Possibilities are:
1. Let the current batch go to dryness and enjoy it as is.
2. As (1) but re-sweeten with sugar when fully fermented and follow
advice above.
3. As (2) but pasteurise in bottle to ensure total sterility.
More details on my web site (Science of Cidermaking Part 4 and the
Ag-Canada booklet- though don't believe it when it says you can stop an
active fermentation reliably with Campden tablets!!).
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: progress?
From: mike tomlinson <tugger@netreach.net>
Date: Sun, 10 Nov 2002 06:56:04 -0500
I am (hopefully) upgrading my cider production system and am moving from
6.5 gal glass carboys to a food grade plastic drum which I thought held
55 gals but learned upon filling it with a local orchard's sweet cider
blend several weeks ago that it held 61 gals. No problem. I remember
several years ago reading the discussion about plastic vs glass etc. but
learned from visiting a number of farm cider producers in the UK that
plastic drums are what they use.
Several questions: The inside of the drum smelled of acetone (sp?) which
I was told was the normal smell of the inside of a plastic drum. Despite
this I soaked it in a light bleach and water mix and then with a baking
soda and water mix and from my nose test seemed to reduce the odor but
not eliminate it. Have I wasted 61 gals of cider? Also I read recently
on Ian Merwin's page that if you plan to use a drum to draw off cider
gradually vs bottling it in its entirety at one time that you should use
a sulfur dioxide air lock. I have not encountered this concept before
and would like recommendations regarding how I should proceed. If I
should get this type of airlock where can I find one or how do I fashion
one?
Also yesterday I found an amish farmer who has a fairly extensive apple
orchard with many varieties of fruit who may be willing to press some of
the following individual varieties of juice for me. I thought I would
take my 6 now unused carboys and ferment individual juices and then
blend when fermentation is done. Can anyone suggest
proportions/blends/mixes of the following: ashmeads kernel, baldwin,
cal. blanc,cortland, cox orange, delicious red and gold, golden russet,
granny smith, gravenstein, grimes golden, honey cider, honeycrisp,
liberty, macintosh, newtown pippin, northern spy, rome beauty, roxbury
russet, rusty coat, smokehouse,spitz, stayman winesap,winter banana, york.
thanks
I have always enjoyed and appreciated Dick Dunns' work in keeping our
avocation going. Thanks Dick!
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1003
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