Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #0972
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #972, 27 May 2002
Cider Digest #972 27 May 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #971, 21 May 2002 (Tim Bray)
Re: Oak in Cider (Terence Bradshaw)
Oakey Cider, Gushing of Ace cider ("Dave Burley")
cider from non cider apples (Alan Ruff)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #971, 21 May 2002
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 23:32:39 -0700
>Incidentally, in the context of the other current thread on this digest,
>you will also get about 3 g/l of CO2 from this added sugar. Which is
>about 15 psi of gas pressure, or one atmosphere over saturation. But
>that of course is why you're doing it in the first place!!
Ah-HAH! Now we are really getting somewhere. 3 g/L of CO2 is less than
the ATF definition for a "sparkling" or "Carbonated" wine. So it should be
possible to produce a carbonated product that still does not get taxed as a
Champagne. Better be careful, though; I imagine the Govt is pretty
aggressive about that tax.
At least now I have some idea of how much 3.9 g/L of CO2 actually IS. Thanks.
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Oak in Cider
From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 08:05:12 -0400
>Does all cider benefit from oak contact?
>
>Must cider be aged in oak barrels or even fermented in oak barrels for that
>matter?
>
>Has anyone successfully used oak battens or "beans" in fermenters
>(stainless, glass, HDPP) or maturation tanks that is equals to barrel
>contact?
I have experimented with using oak chips in my glass fermenters before. I
usually try it with somewhat thinner ciders that might benefit from the
added complexity that oak will impart. I steamed the chips first in a
veggie steamer to sanitize, added 1/2 cup to the carboy, and let it
sit. This was done during secondary ferment, or more accurately, clearing
stage. I tried letting the cider 'oak' for one or three months (two
batches). Both gave pleasant results with a noticeable boost of soft
tannins and a nice, toasted aroma. I actually liked the three month better.
One note on sanitizing chips: I don't think the five-minute steam did
enough here, as the three-month batch formed a film mold on the top that
racked off all right. I did use a little sulfite to try to knock down the
offending critters at bottling. Bottling is actually a misnomer...I kegged
this one and served it at my wedding last summer, so I don't know how well
it would age in a bottle. Next time I would soak the chips in vodka or
bourbon (for that fresh-from-the-barrel flavor) for a couple of days.
This fall, given that I buy a house in time to set up the cider shop, I
plan to do a secondary ferment in a bourbon cask, now that I've found a
supply of them. We'll see how that goes. I'll be sure to make enough in a
neutral container, i.e. glass, so that I can have some pure cider when I'm
sick of my 'Uncle Eddie' batch. I expect the results to be quite different,
not only because of the bourbon remains in the wood but also because the
barrel will allow an amount of controlled (?) oxidation.
All for now,
=================================================================
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
93 Stowe St
Waterbury, VT 05676
(802)244-0953
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented are mine and mine only...
------------------------------
Subject: Oakey Cider, Gushing of Ace cider
From: "Dave Burley" <Dave_Burley@charter.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 09:19:55 -0400
Mark in Oz,
Strange as it may seem and contrary to what you might have heard, oak isn't
all that good for low alcohol brews like cider and beer. In the good old
days before stainless steel containers, oak beer barrels were coated with
"brewer's pitch" inside to keep the beer from contacting the wood and
spoiling prematurely. So all this stuff about "beer from the wood" is just
romance. Beer from the pitch is more like it! Cider would have undoubtedly
had the same treatment if it went into wood. More likely it went into glazed
stoneware ( clay) jugs.
Why is this? Contamination. Wood is porous and a great site for bacterial
and mold growth as anyone who has used oak barrrels for wine knows. Even
with the higher alcohol wine, that "horse blanket" taste of malolactic
fermentation so common ( and expected of older chateaux) flavor of French
Burgundies and Bordeaux can result from contamination from oak barrels. And
that's the good stuff.
Moldy tastes from old oak barrels can quickly spoil a delicate taste like
cider has. Malolactic fermentation can wreak havock on cider whose main acid
is malic! Any citric acid will be converted to acetic acid anaerobically by
the ML fermentation. Not what you had in mind I expect.
So, do you have to do without the imagined oaky taste in your cider? No, you
can use oak chips, but a litle caution is important since these chips are a
source of contamination. Using oak chips, you must decontaminate them first
with a 15 minute treatment at 15 psi in your pressure cooker. I put them in
a bowl, dry, in the bottom of the cooker containing a small amount of water,
to avoid extraction of the oaky goodies. Or if you don't have a p.c. then
boil the chips covered for 15 minutes in a minimum mount of water. In this
case include the water into your cider as it will contain some of the
vanillin and oakey tannins and such.
Put the chips into a cheesecloth bag with a few marbles to weigh them down
and sterilize this whole apparatus.
- --------------------------
Gushing - the heavy foaming of some beer bottles on opening has been a
problem since beer was first bottled and continues to be a source of mystery
even today in some cases. In the brewing industry one variable seems to be
the weather conditions under which the barley was grown! Most often it has
been related to the microcrystallization in the bottle of various organic
acids which act as nucleation sites for the carbon dioxide bubbles once the
pressure has been released.
Perhaps Ace cider could solve the problem - if it continues - by cold
conditioning and micro flitering the cider before bottling.
Dave Burley
------------------------------
Subject: cider from non cider apples
From: Alan Ruff <aruff@lacie.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 12:45:45 -0700
I have a 20 acre apple orchard in Wenatchee WA. All bulk grocery store
apples. Red and Golden Delicious and Galas. I have loved Cider since my
mother first intoduced me to it (I was too young to buy it at that point)
and had the fortune of living in London for a while and trying many of the
best in the UK. I would like make some nice batches from my home apples but
am not sure how to make good cider from my bulk producers. The trees are my
main source of income so I can't afford to switch out for cider varieties.
I would like to find a way to make decent (not prize winning or "vintage")
cider from my culled apples (the "juicers")
Any advice would be appreciated.
Thanx
P.S Already learning a lot just from perusing the digest.
Alan Ruff
Lacie Ltd. Repairs Dept.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #972
*************************
