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Cider Digest #1011
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Subject: Cider Digest #1011, 18 December 2002
Cider Digest #1011 18 December 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #1010, 16 December 2002 (John Ross)
Re: more on tannin (Steve Daughhetee)
Re: More on tannins (Lee Elliott)
Re: Tannins and Ripening ("Ian A. Merwin")
Cider Apples for the cold climate ("Mark Parranto")
re: cider varities, tanning, keeving ("John C. Campbell III")
Time to think about planting (Chaad@aol.com)
Pomoculture and Environment ("McGonegal, Charles")
Re: Cider apples in New England (Terence Bradshaw)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #1010, 16 December 2002
From: John Ross <johnross@halcyon.com>
Date: Mon, 16 Dec 2002 20:46:43 -0800
At 09:25 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, Dick Dunn wrote:
>Could we pursue this further? Does anyone else have evidence about tannin
>levels of English/French bittersweets in the US? Even anecdotal evidence in
>response is interesting.
Some of the cidermakers in the Northwest are working with the research
center at Washington State University to produce and analyze some varietal
ciders using the cider apples grown at Mount Vernon. It's too early to have
any useful information from that project, but it's in process. If there's a
standard method for measuring tannin, please let me know and I'll share it
with the people who can apply it to these ciders.
I know there are others from the "upper left-hand corner" reading the Cider
Digest. Maybe one or more of them knows more about this than I do and will
share more details.
John Ross
Seattle
------------------------------
Subject: Re: more on tannin
From: Steve Daughhetee <sdd6@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 00:34:26 -0500
Just a note on tannin and keeving. For the record, I have not yet
keeved. But I did make an interesting observation this season.
This year my regular sources of apples (in central New York) were
rather sparse. A friend has several old and large pear trees and
they bore heavily (must have avoided the killing frost). These trees
bear a very small, high Brix, and extremely astringent fruit. It is
a pure astringency, without any bitterness. Legend has it that they
were planted in 1950 by a Swiss farmer for brandy production. We
don't know the actual variety. I shook down 18 bushels of these
pears (a small fraction of the total available). I also picked seven
bushels of Golden Russet and three bushels of Ida Red apples. At the
mill, I blended all of the apples with three bushels of the pears.
Then I pressed the remainder of the pears, along with two bushels of
a more flavorful pear from a local tree.
The most immediately striking result was the juice which issued from
the press tank. Both juices were relatively clear, without the usual
haze found in freshly pressed juices. There was a very substantial
quantity of sludge at the bottom of the tank. This sludge rapidly
settled to the bottom of the juice containers, forming heavy lees.
In the past, I have used approximately half as many tannic pears
(relative to apples) in my blend and have never experienced this
"self fining". Even the smaller amount of pears contributed a
significant level of tannins to the final cider. I have never
pressed the pears on their own before this season. My hunch at this
point is that there is a threshold level of tannins required to
achieve precipitation of the lees.
Both the cider and the perry have significant tannin levels at
racking. The cider is quite balanced, while the perry is rather
overly astringent. The astringency has dropped considerably since
pressing, but I would still like to lower it more. I am considering
egg white fining, and I would appreciate some experience anyone would
like to share on the matter.
Thanks.
Steve Daughhetee
Trumansburg, NY
- --
------------------------------
Subject: Re: More on tannins
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net (Lee Elliott)
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 06:48:44 -0600 (CST)
A long hot humid growing season here in the US does have an effect on
tannins but I think overcroping the tree and resulting bienial bearing
is the greater problem, not enough tannins, carbos, to go around for too
many fruit. Try thinning your trees to one fruit per cluster, 8-10
inches apart, learn to use chemical thinners (sevin, NAA) Will upsize
your fruit and Quality of fruit.
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Tannins and Ripening
From: "Ian A. Merwin" <im13@cornell.edu>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:22:20 -0500
Folks-
Several comments on recent postings:
The time of ripening for European bitter varieties in most regions of
the US (excepting those with cool maritime climates) should be
considerably earlier than those reported for Southwest England or
Normandy/Brittany. Our plantings of these varieties in the Finger
Lakes region of New York-typical growing degree days or cumulative
heat units around 2500 degrees (calculated to base temperature
threshold 50 F), usually frost free from early May to mid
October-have ripened about one month earlier here than they do in
western Europe. Even the latest maturing varieties-such as Medaille
d-Or, Brown Snout, Chisel Jersey and Porters Perfection-usually ripen
by the third week of October. So if you are in a region where Fuji
or Northern Spy will ripen properly, you should have little trouble
ripening the late- maturing European bitter varieties on the tree.
Be prepared for substantial pre-harvest fruit drop as you wait for
these cider varieties to ripen, and consider mulching or letting the
grass grow beneath your trees as autumn approaches so that the drops
will land on a clean soft surface instead of in the mud!
On the topic of rootstocks: For many practical reasons we generally
prefer dwarfing stocks such as M.9 or Bud.9 for dessert apples, and I
began growing the traditional bittersweets and bittertarts five years
ago with the assumption that these should also be grown on dwarfing
stocks. As these trees came into production I began to question the
wisdom of that assumption. Many of the cider varieties appear to be
very sensitive to heat or photo-oxidative stress of fruit that are
fully exposed to sunlight, even under the relatively cool growing
conditions of upstate New York. The past two growing seasons we have
had a foretaste of global warming, experiencing several weeks of
temperatures in the mid-90s (F), and there has been substantial heat
and sunscald damage to many of the cider apples on dwarf trees with
open canopies. Since red or blush fruit color is not so necessary
for cider as for fresh market dessert apples, and high fruit color is
a primary rationale for the narrow stature and open canopy of dwarf
trees, I am beginning to think that we should consider growing the
traditional European cider apples on semi-dwarf trees (M.7 and CG.30
would be my preferences for the Northeast USA) with reduced pruning
and a more dense canopy, more like pears than desert apples.
On the tannins east vs. west question: Even within a single variety
and growing region there is substantial variation in total tannins
from year to year. For desired astringency and other qualities in
your cider blends, I suggest you try to keep your tree nitrogen
levels on the low side (below 2% leaf N on a dry weight basis). This
will concentrate the sugars in fruit, promote a slower primary
fermentation which should minimize the stripping of desirable
fruit-flavor volatives by CO2 bubbles. Low N supply will also reduce
fruit size, which inevitably increases the tannin content of your
juice because smaller fruit have a higher surface-to-flesh ratio, and
most of the tannins are in the skins. Smaller fruit resulting from
low-N supply will also reduce preharvest push-offs of fruit set in
doubles or triples on a spur, which is a tendency of many
bittersweets and bittertarts. During the first several years after
planting, when you are growing these tree to fill their allocated
space, it is usually advantageous to supplement nitrogen, minimize
weed competition, and irrigate to maintain shoot growth during the
summer. Once your cider trees begin to bear fruit you can reduce or
eliminate fertilizer N except on the least fertile soils, consider
maintaining a close-mowed sod beneath the trees, and be sparing with
irrigation (this is called regulated deficit irrigation, and there
are publications explaining how to do it in places like California or
Washington where irrigation is essential) during the months
approaching harvest. These are all common practices in vineyards
striving for high quality wine grapes, and if you are growing apples
for high quality ciders, the wine-grape growers mind-set may be more
appropriate than the dessert apple growers mind-set.
- --
*************************
Ian Merwin (im13@cornell.edu)
Associate Professor of Horticulture
118 Plant Science Bldg.
Dept. of Horticulture
Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, 14853
Tel. 607-255-1777
URL. http://www.hort.cornell.edu/department/faculty/merwin/index.htm
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Apples for the cold climate
From: "Mark Parranto" <apple@mninter.net>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 10:32:42 -0800
Jason MacArthur asked, in CD 1010, about English and French varieties that
withstand cold, as he lives in Vermont. I live in Minnesota which may be
even colder. I planted Kingston Black, Trembletts Bitter and Ellis Bitter,
all on M-7 rootstock, in the spring of 2000. In December of 2000 we had an
unusually early cold snap. On Christmas Eve it was -35F with only 2 - 4
inches of snow. It was COLD. The weather was cold for a considerable
period both before and after. It is normal to get well below 0 F but not
until the middle of January, and not that cold. The Kingston Black and Ellis
Bitter survived. The Trembletts Bitter froze out entirely. That same year
we planted some Gala and Dayton. They also froze out. Minnesota varieties
that were planted the same year survived. The cider varieties and the
Dayton came from Jim Cummins nursery, the Gala from a different nursery, so
the nursery is not an issue. In 2001 the Kingston and Ellis were lethargic.
The leaves looked good, but not much growth took place. In 2002 they both
took off, growing like weeds. Theses two varieties, at least, appear to be
able to withstand severe cold. For background, my orchard is planted on a
very gentle slope. The soil is light but good organic topsoil down 2 - 3
feet, then breaking to coarse sand and gravel mix. There is very little
clay. It is irrigated with drip irrigation. Most of our 6000 trees are on
M-26, Mark and M-7, and all are doing very well, so I think the variety is
the issue, and nothing else. I look forward to hearing about other's
experience with English and French varieties in cold areas.
Mark Parranto
------------------------------
Subject: re: cider varities, tanning, keeving
From: "John C. Campbell III" <jccampb@tseassoc.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:15:09 -0500
> Subject: cider varieties, tannin, keeving
> From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
> Date: Thu, 12 Dec 2002 15:44:15 -0700 (MST)
>
> In Cider Digest 1009, From: Andrew Lea wrote:
> ...
> > In my experience it is very difficult / impossible to do keeving
> > succesfully with any apples other than French or English bittersweets
> > grown under specifically low nitrogen conditions...
> ...
> > ...But even then success is not at all certain. Sadly, i have some
> > anecdotal evidence that even these BS cultivars, when grown in climates
> > outside of the damp cold oceanic ones they came from (eg in much of the
> > US), do not produce the high tannin levels that they do with us here in
> > NW Europe.
>
> Could we pursue this further? Does anyone else have evidence about tannin
> levels of English/French bittersweets in the US? Even anecdotal evidence in
> response is interesting. Results of experiments with keeving *might* help,
> in the sense that a keeving failure might not say much but success *would*
> say something. Measurements on tannins would be particularly interesting.
>
> I did hear "anecdotal evidence" of one French variety producing high tannin
> in a very mild US climate, and I've had US ciders that were notably tannic.
>
Dick, it will be a couple of years before I can contribute to this
answer but I'm in a coastal area (Annapolis, Md. quarter mile from the
Chesapeake bay) and have just started a cider specific orchard
consisting of two Karmijn de Sonnaville's, four Ashmead's Kernel's, two
Kingston Blacks, a Harry Master's Jersey, a Fox Whelp, two Medaille d'
or's, a Brown's apple, a Dunkerton Late Sweet, a Dabinett, and of course
a Cox's Orange Pippin. I should see token fruit on several of the
scions in a couple of years (I'll pluck any blossoms I see this coming
season) I already have one Hewes crab and a Spitzenberg, a Milo Gibson,
a Sunrise+, a Sasha X Red flesh. Part of the plants went in late fall
this year and the majority of the rest will go in in March (with the
exception of two additional Hewes Crabs I'm having grafted up and will
not be in receipt of until fall 2003.) and I'm also going to get
exhaustive soil testing done (haven't done it in several years but the
area where the orchard has gone into was a field I had put some 40 tons
of topsoil and horse manure into for garden purposes about 5 years
ago.) I also have a full weather station here and meteorological data
for almost ten years in this location. (for those of you that don't know
... this region is humid and sticky most of the year except dead winter
when it's just humid and cold). Several of your list members (Jim
Cummins not the least thereof) have excellent stock in cider varieties
and I know for a fact he got some fruit off of his Kingston Blacks this
last fall. I'm sure he could be persuaded to test for tannin in his
stock, as could the folks at Big Horse Nursery down in the Appalachian
Mountains of North Carolina.
I've had an impossible time getting apples around here for cider to make
my Cyser and hard cider from, and have had to use McCutcheon's
commercial product for the past several years (crab apples are
impossible to find in this region ... the green grocers try to pass
"lady's apples" off on you as "crab apples".. which is only slightly
less incorrect than trying to claim pool and snooker are the same
sports. - sigh -
John C. Campbell III
------------------------------
Subject: Time to think about planting
From: Chaad@aol.com
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 12:54:02 -0500
My father wants to put in some fruit trees in this spring, and I have been
given permission to slip a cider apple tree or two in among them in exchange
for doing the selection and ordering. There will most likely be 4 or 5
apple trees, at least 2 or 3 of which will be apples for eating. My
initial thought is to put in a Kingston Black with a dessert apple that will
blossom at the right time for pollination, but I am open to suggestions.
Can anyone think of a combination of cider tree(s) and eating apple tree(s)
that would pollinate well? Taken a step further, if the eating apple
happened to also be a good blender for cider then that would be good as
well. The location is in west-central Illinois on the line between zones
4 and 5 (10" or so topsoil over clay, but Jonathons have done pretty well
there).
Also, if anyone has a source for good trees I would be interested in that
also (on or off list). Cummins Orchard in NY seems to have everything, and
since the total number of trees will be 11 or more the price will be good.
I am also considering ordering scionwood from the great collection at
Washington State and grafting, but that would probably put the cropping a
year behind and be less reliable. Any comments on eating/perry pears
appreciated also. Thanks, Chad Brown
------------------------------
Subject: Pomoculture and Environment
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <Charles.McGonegal@uop.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 13:36:32 -0600
In the last CD, I thnk it was Dick Dunn who wrote:
"And the US covers such a variety of climates...I'm not sure what common
factor there would be. (Are English apples bitter that the folks over
there still drive on the wrong side of the road?:)"
I had been doing some poking (as an amatuer) into evaluating climate as part
of site selection. I based my comparisons on the methods of John Gladstones
as printed in 'Viticulture and Environment' and some subsequent articles.
Gladstones examines grape growing in the context of about a dozen
environmental parameters. these can be determined for specific sites, or
estimated from regional data. I trolled the info for the southern half of
Lake Michigan from the NWS and NOAA databases.
I put the data from about 30 monitoring stations into a database and then
had Arcview GIS software draw me color coded contour maps. This method is
aimed a grapes - but apples have a similar growing season here in the
midwest. I anycase, it allows comparison across diverse areas. Of climate
at least - not soil or ecosystems. Gladstones has some tables of other wine
growing areas - I have not checked for Northern France. (I'll have to put it
on my to-do list :-)
When I was doing my research, I found that several states have put
comparable data on the web. Virginia for instance. And a student somewhere
used to have the Niagara region on the web. It would be nice to have info
on some of the English apple growing regions.
If there is interest, I can put the maps I made on the internet.
Chas. McGonegal
AEppelTreow Winery
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider apples in New England
From: Terence Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Tue, 17 Dec 2002 17:45:10 -0500
I too will be planting a cider orchard in Vermont next year, and have
already ordered the trees. My overseas varieties include Bedan, Brown's
Apple, Brown Snout, Michelin, Dabinett, Foxwhelp, Kingston Black, and
Tremlett's Bitter. I am also including several Russets and a number of
eaters including Sweet 16, Keepsake, Black Oxford, Blue Pearmain, and some
others. I am just outside of Montpelier, VT at 1500 ft elevation. I based
my choices on advice from my nurseryman, Jim Cummins, and talks with some
area growers with experience with these cultivars, especially Steve Woods
at <http://www.povertylaneorchards.com/>Poverty Lane Orchards /
<http://www.farnumhillciders.com/>Farnum<http://www.farnumhillciders.com/>
Hill Cider. I also have a decade of experience growing commercial and
research fruit in the region, and so extrapolated some from there where
local information was lacking. I am not expecting all of my varieties to
perform well here, but I can always topwork the undesirable varieties at a
later date. Were I to place my order today, I probably would include
Yarlington Mill.
I haven't directly answered the question however, as I have no experience
with anyone growing these at such a high elevation in Zone 4. A perusal of
the list from Farnum Hill may provide some insight for the varieties you
are looking at.
Best of luck!
TB
>I live in southern Vt. at about 1600 feet elevation, and I am hoping to
>plant some english and french bitters next spring. The varieties I have in
>mind are Major, Medaille' d'Or, and Stoke Red. I am wondering what
>experience growers have had getting these to ripen in the US or New England.
> Happy cidering!
=================================================================
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
1189 Wheeler Road
Calais, VT 05648
(802)229-2004
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented are mine and mine only...
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1011
*************************
