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Cider Digest #1018
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1018, 20 January 2003
Cider Digest #1018 20 January 2003
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Culturing French cider yeast (Andrew Lea)
tannin measurement and RS? (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Culturing French cider yeast
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 12 Jan 2003 21:22:44 +0000
Warren Place asked
> I just got back from a trip to Normandy. I visitted some cider
> farms while there and brought back some cider. Now I'm wondering if
> anybody has tried culturing the microbes from these ciders to use as a
> starter? I'd love to hear if anybody has had any luck with this method.
Even the French themselves haven't had much success with this! The
reason is that, unlike beer and most other ciders, French cider is not
made with a pure yeast culture. It is a wild yeast fermentation with an
'ecological succession' of yeasts thoughout fermentation. Getting all
the yeasts to 'cut in' in sequence as they do in a natural succession is
not easy!
So the yeast in the bottle at the end of fermentation is not the same as
the one that began it! Sure, you can culture this yeast and get a
reasonable cider out of it, but French experimenters themselves have
shown that this does not give the complexity of flavour which you get
from a natural succession of mixed microflora. As far as I know, even
the mainstream French cider industry still uses wild yeast
fermentations, and for this very reason (unlike nearly everybody else in
the commercial cidermaking world!).
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
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Subject: tannin measurement and RS?
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sat, 18 Jan 2003 12:40:37 -0700 (MST)
Based on comments on tannin measurements in juice, plus various comments on
and off the list, I had the impression that tannin measurement was not
sensitive to the presence of sugar (nor to alcohol, I guess). But
Benedicte Rhyne's comments in CD 1017 specifically say that "residual
sugars will affect the analysis". What's the source of the difference
here? Benedicte's comments specifically noted "Folin Ciocalteau analysis".
The other method that has been mentioned is permanganate titration--is
that insensitive to RS?
It seems that if we're going to make sense of tannins in ciders from all
over the world, we do need some standardized, reproducible means of
measuring tannins, *and* we need to be able to measure it in juice as well
as in finished cider (in order to get some understanding of the changes).
I'm also uneasy at the idea that we're lumping all "tannins" together, even
though they contribute potentially different characters to the taste and
mouthfeel. Are we sweeping too much under the rug?
And beyond the tannins in the juice, what about tannins contributed by
fermenting and/or aging in wood? (How many cider-makers actually do that?)
___
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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End of Cider Digest #1018
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