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Cider Digest #0971
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #971, 21 May 2002
Cider Digest #971 21 May 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Oak in Cider ("Mark Ellis")
Vigo Ltd on the move (Andrew Lea)
Effect of priming sugar on alcohol (Andrew Lea)
Re: Ace Cider (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Oak in Cider
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Fri, 17 May 2002 23:15:25 +1000
G'day All,
Just seeking opinions on oak use in cider production.
Does all cider benefit from oak contact?
Must cider be aged in oak barrels or even fermented in oak barrels for that
matter?
Has anyone successfully used oak battens or "beans" in fermenters
(stainless, glass, HDPP) or maturation tanks that is equals to barrel
contact?
Thanks for your help. I am trying to see if oaking is as important in cider
as it is in wine etc.
Catcha
Mark E. in Oz
------------------------------
Subject: Vigo Ltd on the move
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 10:33:45 +0100
I just heard that Vigo Ltd, the premier UK (and export) supplier of
equipment to small-scale cidermakers, is moving to bigger premises from
27th May. Their business is doing so well they need more space!
New contact details are:
Vigo Ltd
Dunkeswell Airfield
Dunkeswell
Honiton
Devon
EX14 4LF (England)
Tel: +44 (0) 1404 890262 Fax +44 (0) 1404 890263
e-mail: sales@vigoltd.com
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Effect of priming sugar on alcohol
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sat, 18 May 2002 11:41:33 +0100
Politas asked:
>
> What I'm trying to find out is how much alcohol
> is produced by bottle carbonation. If I add a
> teaspoon of Dextrose to a 750ml bottle of cider
> (or half a teaspoon to a 375ml bottle), how much
> will the alcohol rise?
Exactly what is the weight of glucose (dextrose) in your teaspoon?
You have to know that accurately before you can begin.
Anyway, let's assume for the sake of argument that it's 5 grams.
Then 5 g of glucose (or sucrose) will give a typical yield of alcohol of
around 47% i.e. 2.35 g. In 750 ml of cider this equates to 0.31 % by
weight (w/w). But alcohol is always conventionally measured by volume so
that becomes 0.4 v/v.
> I've thought of measuring the SG after priming,
> and adding the potential alcohol from that to
> the potential from the original SG, but I'm not
> sure if it that simple.
>
It is that simple, but the numbers are very small and you would be
unlikely to measure them that accurately. For instance, adding your 5g
per 750 ml is equivalent to adding 6.67 grams per litre. From the
published sugar tables (e.g. in the Proulx and Nichols book) this works
out at a difference of just 0.003 in SG. (and 0.4% v/v in potential
alcohol).
Incidentally, in the context of the other current thread on this digest,
you will also get about 3 g/l of CO2 from this added sugar. Which is
about 15 psi of gas pressure, or one atmosphere over saturation. But
that of course is why you're doing it in the first place!!
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford, UK.
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk OR
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/andrew_lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Ace Cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Mon, 20 May 2002 21:21:03 -0600 (MDT)
Regarding my second encounter with gushing bottles of Ace Cider...
first, Bill Rhyne wrote:
> Ace cider is made at near sea level in California and
> you are in Boulder, Colo. --I think-- and and so you
> are over 5000 feet above sea level so the gas will
> escape more easily...
I'm actually in Hygiene, Colo, but yes, almost the same altitude as
Boulder. The difference in atmospheric pressure from sea level to us is
about 20%. That's not nearly enough to make the difference, and consider
also that we have all sorts of carbonated beverages--Champagne, most micro-
brews, etc.--coming here from near sea level, with no problem.
The overcarbonation of the Ace Cider was at least a factor of 2 more gas
than should have been there, and was accompanied by whatever other factors
cause gushing as contrasted with just high carbonation (microbial contami-
nation generally, it seems).
>...Try chilling it down to 34 degrees
> F and see if that slows the escape of gas. I noticed
> that our cider is a little more sparkling when we pour
> at Lake Tahoe events...
I tried careful chilling and very gentle handling. No noticeable diff.
Tahoe is about 6500 ft elevation, same ballpark difference. But Bill,
there is a BIG difference between "a little more sparkling" and "empties
half the bottle when you lift the cap"!
Next, Jeffrey House <jeffrey@acecider.com> responds on behalf of Ace Cider.
Although I have some questions about Mr. House's response, I have to say
that it's nice to get an answer directly from the source!
> We have just read David Dunn's article about our Ace ciders...
Actually it's Dick Dunn, but ok...
>...and wish to
> assure your members that we have very stringent quality control
> standards at the California Cider Company and sell in excess of 150,000
> cases across the U.S. annually.We do not pasteurize our ciders and use
> almost 100 per cent juice and the best ingredients that are available.
Yes, one of the reasons that I had decided to try Ace again, after for-
getting last summer's mishap, was that I was going by ingredients on the
label, and Ace doesn't seem to be using the "half fermented sugar-water"
approach that most other national brands use.
> Each bottling and kegging undergoes stringent microbiological analysis
> in our in-house laboratory.We moved facilities twice last year and did
> unfortunately experience some bottle refermentation last summer. This
> was from a malolactic bacteria...
That might explain the problem I encountered last June. But I think it
does not quite explain the problem this month. I would like to think that
the product turns a complete cycle in substantially less than a year.
>...We recalled this product and had to
> destroy it.We operate through 50 wholesalers, who unfortunately do not
> always rotate product properly or may not have replaced all the cider
> from all retailers shelves or storage rooms...
OK, to start, I can understand the problem with wholesalers (and retailers)
not following through. It's a vexing problem because the producer just
can't get out there and fix it. But there are several opposing problems.
First, I purchased this at the second or third largest (I'm not sure)
liquor store in the state. I should think they wouldn't still be selling
a batch that was known in June 2001 to be contaminated, on into May 2002,
eleven months later.
Second, even though I can sympathize with the problem of getting the dis-
tribution chain to pull bad product, I believe they need at least a little
bit of help in doing so. I have a passing familiarity with methods of
date-coding (stamps, label notches, and the like), and I can't see ANY date
codes on Ace cider. How can a retailer pull bad product if he can't tell
the good from the bad? Maybe there's something on the cases, but even
then, how do you tell once it's on the shelves, and how will I as a
customer know when the product in the store is from the contaminated
batch?
Next, I'm having trouble reconciling "stringent microbiological analysis"
with that sort of contamination. How did it slip by?
Finally, the nature of the refermentation does not fit with malo-lactic
fermentation, at least not as I understand it. Malo-lactic should _reduce_
the acidity/harshness, not increase it. It should not produce gushing.
And it should not produce a lot of CO2.
I think there's more going on here than we understand so far.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Without love in the dream, it'll never come true.
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End of Cider Digest #971
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