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Cider Digest #0969
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #969, 11 May 2002
Cider Digest #969 11 May 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Baldwin Cider (Terry Maloney)
re: Baldwin Cider (Dick Dunn)
BATF sparkling wine regs and ppCO2 ("McGonegal, Charles")
Alcohol change from priming? (excite@politas.mailshell.com)
Cider Regs (Tim Bray)
ARGH! Ace'd again! (Dick Dunn)
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Subject: Baldwin Cider
From: Terry Maloney <terry@westcountycider.com>
Date: Mon, 06 May 2002 18:03:35 -0400
Tim Bray wrote: >Subject: Baldwin Cider
>From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
>Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2002 10:15:56 -0700
>
>
>>This past winter we made a totally dry Baldwin Cider.
>
> From pure Baldwin juice, or a blend?
>
>I'm curious because Baldwin apparently is a low-chill variety that might do
>well here. If it is good enough to make a varietal cider, then maybe I
>should plant more of it.
We have found Baldwin to make a nice, balanced single variety cider.
It has acidity and a bit more tannin than most dessert varieties. In
our area, it was the apple of choice for traditional cidermakers. We
get our Baldwins from trees that are 75-125 years old, and I think that
helps. This year we will start harvesting some trees we recently
planted and I am looking forward to comparing.
The tree has a very strong tendency to biennial bearing, though some
growers have them producing annually. It seems resistant to the
multitude of perils apples face here. The "wild" - uncultivated
Baldwins frequently bear decent fruit, occasionally enough for a batch
of cider with a very concentrated flavor.
Not everyone seems to like Baldwin for a cider. For example Proulx &
Nichols described Baldwin Cider as "flat and insipid". At worst, it can
be an excellent blending apple. We made two batches of Redfield from
the last harvest, one blended with straight Baldwin, the other from
assorted dessert apples. The Baldwin had more depth.
I have no idea how they would do in CA, but it would be worth testing.
It makes good pies and eating, and stores well if the cider doesn't work
out.
Terry Maloney
West County Cider
Colrain MA
------------------------------
Subject: re: Baldwin Cider
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 23:22:46 -0600 (MDT)
FWIW, just one data point from one person (one couple, actually), we had a
Baldwin cider and found it to be bland and uninteresting. The particular
cider was exceptionally well made and there was nothing explicitly wrong
or bad-tasting about it. You wouldn't turn up your nose or toss it away,
but you wouldn't ask for a second glass.
Dick
------------------------------
Subject: BATF sparkling wine regs and ppCO2
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <cpmcgone@uop.com>
Date: Thu, 9 May 2002 14:44:02 -0500
In CD# 967 Tim Bray writes:
>Of course, I still have yet to figure out what the definition of
>"sparkling" and "carbonated" actually means: it is given as more than 0.392
>grams of CO2 per hundred milliliters. That's 3.9 grams per liter. But I
>have no idea what that corresponds to in physical terms - is that the
>saturation point at a certain temperature and pressure?
I've dug into the literature a little. I'm sure there are nice little
graphs around, but I couldn't find them.
But given the solubility of CO2 at 20C and 1 bar, and some notes that CO2
follows Henry's law up to about 100 MPa (big pressure!), I have figured
thusly:
At room temp, in an open container, about 1.7 grams of CO2 will go into
solution under a CO2 blanket.
At 3.9 grams CO2, the balancing pressure to keep the gas in solution would
have to be about 2.25 bar absolute, or 19 psi-gauge.
Champagne runs 5-6 bar gauge, or 75-90 psig. That would mean 10-12 g/L CO2.
This is also the figure the you get for about 20g/L of sucrose added to a
dry wine at bottling. (Give or take a 'real world' fudge factor).
So if you flipped the 3.9g CO2/L limit for still wine tax rates over on its
head, you would get a sugar addition at bottling of around 7g/L, or the
equivalent of that in residual sugar, or freedom to use a CO2 pressure
bottle filler up to about 20psig without worry.
The pressure should change by about .4 psi per 'C.
Does that make any sense?
------------------------------
Subject: Alcohol change from priming?
From: excite@politas.mailshell.com
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 20:57:10 -0700
I wonder if some of the more scientific-minded
people on this list can give me a definite answer
to this question, since the replies I have had so
far have varied significantly.
What I'm trying to find out is how much alcohol
is produced by bottle carbonation. If I add a
teaspoon of Dextrose to a 750ml bottle of cider
(or half a teaspoon to a 375ml bottle), how much
will the alcohol rise?
I've thought of measuring the SG after priming,
and adding the potential alcohol from that to
the potential from the original SG, but I'm not
sure if it that simple.
Here's the deal - a batch of cider starts out at
1.050 SG, and ferments down to 1.000, so its
alcohol level should now be 6.4%, right? But
bottle carbonation after priming will take that up
a bit more. I tried the rec.crafts.brewing
newsgroup, but got two replies, one saying 0.1%
increase, and one saying 0.5% increase. I'd like
to get an answer I can trust, so that I can
tell people how much alcohol is in the home brew
I give them.
- --
Politas
http://www.geocities.com/politasau
------------------------------
Subject: Cider Regs
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Thu, 09 May 2002 23:18:35 -0700
>From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
>
>In regards with cider regulations, start with http://www.atf.treas.gov/.
>Look up Title 27, the various sections can be downloaded. Enjoy. I think you
>will find cider is something greater than 1/2% and less than 7% alcohol by
>volume.
Been there, done that, got the crossed eyes... Finding the nitty-gritty
specific to cider is quite difficult. But I believe you are correct as to
the ABV limits. I have heard back from people at both FDA and ATF, who
tell me that cider under 7% ABV is under the jurisdiction of FDA, not
ATF. There still seems to be some confusion about whether still cider can
be produced outside a winery and escape licensing and taxation...
>From: Allen Alexander <allenalexander1@yahoo.com>
> For accurate information on wine/beer/whiskey/taxes/etc.
>definitions one needs to consult the United States Code (USC), the Code of
>Federal Regulations and the Federal Register. I say this almost tongue in
>cheek because unless you are trained and experienced in this kind of
>research AND familiar with the particular areas you are looking for your
>efforts will only lead to increased consumption of hard cider because of
>frustration.
No kidding! I'm familiar with this kind of research - in the environmental
regulation field - but still found it quite frustrating. Most of the
information I could find that was specific to cider was related to
labeling, or tax rates; nothing about licensing.
As noted above, I have been told by ATF and FDA representatives that cider
under 7% abv is under FDA jurisdiction; yet there is a Federal tax category
for hard cider (with anything more than 0.5 % abv). This category was
created in 1997, when it replaced the former exemption for "farm"
cider. The presence of this category would seem to imply some ATF
authority, would it not?
From what I can make out, I could produce a still cider on my farm without
first getting an ATF license; all I would have to do is get the label
approved by FDA. Anything other than a still cider, made primarily from
apple juice or concentrate, and you have to get a winery license and pay
higher tax rates.
I still don't know how much carbonation 3.9 g/L really amounts to. The
kind of cider I want to make is lightly carbonated - "bouche," as the
Normans call it, "kissed" with a sparkle of tiny bubbles, but not really
effervescent like champagne, beer, or soda. Guess I'll have to make some
and have it analysed.
Cheers,
Tim
------------------------------
Subject: ARGH! Ace'd again!
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Sat, 11 May 2002 10:33:14 -0600 (MDT)
Some of you may recall a posting of mine last June about gushing bottles of
Ace brand cider. In the discussion that followed, "we" sort of came to the
conclusion that of the two possibilities--a fermentation that re-started in
the bottle, or contamination--contamination was the more likely. This was
because the bottles were not _just_ over-carbonated, but that they tended
to "gush" (empty about half the liquid from the bottle when opened).
Well, I hadn't forgotten the incident but I had apparently forgotten the
connection to the brand, so when I was hunting around in the store for a
possibly-less-offensive-than-most commercial cider, I guess I had a "senior
moment" and bought another pack of Ace cider. (This is their regular
cider, not one of the "flavored" types.)
Same result as last summer! Gushed like a small geyser! Fortunately, I
opened the first bottle in the garage where the bottle opener is wall-
mounted above a large sink, so clean-up was minimal. But the bottle was
less than half full after it stopped gushing. I had done all the right
stuff: the cider was cold and had been sitting quietly for a day or so.
I opened the remaining bottles and studied the results. Two bottles were
actually plausibly OK--fizzy but within reason, and the cider was clear
(not brilliant but no haze). The other four bottles were all geysers,
hazy, and with a sediment that broke up and rose on the bubbles after the
bottles were opened.
And what's going on here?!? It couldn't be the same bad batch as 11 months
ago. It raises a lot of questions in my mind...such as: Is it a generic
problem with Ace cider? How do they keep selling this stuff? And what
does this tell us about the "average consumer" understanding or appreciation
of cider?
Anybody else try Ace recently? If so, was your experience similar or
contrary to mine?
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Without love in the dream, it'll never come true.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #969
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