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Cider Digest #1009
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #1009, 11 December 2002
Cider Digest #1009 11 December 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Ribston Pippin (Andrew Lea)
Racking! (Andrew Lea)
Resweetening as an FAQ (Andrew Lea)
Drought resistance trees (Lee Elliott)
Rootstocks (James Cummins)
Cloudy cider (pectin haze?) - how to clear? (Daniel Chisholm)
Sulphite & Racking (Tim Bray)
Racking ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
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----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Ribston Pippin
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 11:54:47 +0000
Dan,
I grow Ribston Pippin here in Oxfordshire, UK. Not as a cider apple -
just for eating. I find it very very prone to scab and to 'star
crack'. But what fruit I do get I enjoy. It is allegedly one of the
parents of 'Cox Orange Pippin', arguably the most well known of UK
dessert apples.
If you e-mail me a picture off-list I can tell you if it looks like
mine.
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Racking!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 12:15:35 +0000
Derek Bissett wrote:
> Assuming that I am aiming for some residual sweetness I should draw off the
> juice after a week or so when a brown cap has formed . One difficulty here
> I have found is that I can't judge when the cap has formed fully.
I get over this by fermenting in translucent HDPE so I can see when the
'chapeau brun' has formed and how much crud is at the bottom.
> Out of interest I skimmed the cap off one batch and it reformed each day
> until I decided to rack the juice off anyway. It is now fermenting nicely
> with no yeast addition . I feel that if I had waited longer the
> fermentation would have broken up the cap and the its usefulness would have
> been lost .
True. I find there is a leeway of only about 48 hours when 'keeving'.
As a weekend cidermaker, if I miss that window and it happens to fall
midweek when I cannot attend to the racking, then I've blown it!!
> I have read V. S. Charley saying that the more important racking takes
> place with a gravity drop of 10-12 and there has been a major yeast build up .
> It seems to me there differing ideas here . The brown cap thinking focuses
> on removing nutrients while Charley is thinking of yeast removal . Should
> the safest course be then to rack for both nutrient and yeast removal in
> order to make fermentation as slow as possible ?
YES. Both parts should be removed for the reasons you state. If you
look in Proulx and Nichols second edition p 81 you will see just that.
> . But I think the main variables there have been the use of proper cider
> apples against an overproportion of dessert and sharps . I wonder though if
> the timing and number of rackings has had some effect .
>
In my experience it is very difficult / impossible to do keeving
succesfully with any apples other than French or English bittersweets
grown under specifically low nitrogen conditions. And even not all of
them will work (especially those which assimilate high nitrogen
naturally and ferment quickly). Large amounts of pectin are also
necessary for success, which is why 'maceration' is also a help. And
you can always add the Klercidre Rapidase CME and extra calcium like I
do. But even then success is not at all certain. Sadly, i have some
anecdotal evidence that even these BS cultivars, when grown in climates
outside of the damp cold oceanic ones they came from (eg in much of the
US), do not produce the high tannin levels that they do with us here in
NW Europe.
An additional feature to racking is that every time you rack you tend to
aerate the cider which stimulates yeast growth. This you do not want!
So racking in order to slow down a fermentation should be done with the
minimum of aeration and turbulence (difficult if using a pump rather
than a syphon). In Charley's day (1940's) there was much talk of using
small-scale centrifuges to benefit this process, but AFAIK this concept
has never taken off. One day when i have the time I would like to
investigate if any small-scale flow-through food-grade centrifuges are
still on sale and would be of any use to hobby / craft cidermakers.
They are certainly in use in large cider factories (in the UK and
France).
Andrew Lea, Oxford, UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Resweetening as an FAQ
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 12:27:05 +0000
Giles said
> The above question and others like "My cider is too tart. What can
> I do about it? " are frequently asked in Cider Digest. Frequent
> replies to the same question get tiring after awhile. I wonder if
> someone highly knowledgable could come up "definite" answers to
> frequently asked questions (FAQs) and post them somewhere on the
> Internet, where we could direct the questioner, rather than rely on the
> good-will of readers.
Arrogant of me, I know, but to this particular FAQ I just direct
enquirers to Part
4 of my 'Science of Cidermaking', and to the Ag-Canada booklet, both
accessible via my website!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Drought resistance trees
From: applehilorchard@webtv.net (Lee Elliott)
Date: Sun, 8 Dec 2002 07:46:37 -0600 (CST)
Seedling trees are more drought resistant than trees with clonal
rootstocks but the seedlings seed must be planted on site and later a
top grafted on. (a seedling will send down a deep tap root if not dug up
and tap root cut) this may be a lot of trouble but will get you a deep
drought resistant tree, Pick seeds from a good vigorous, fireblight
resistant cultivar, I like Ben Davis or Hawkeye red Del.
------------------------------
Subject: Rootstocks
From: James Cummins <jnc1@localnet.com>
Date: Mon, 09 Dec 2002 11:32:13 -0700
in re: Dr. Steve Ingels in CD#1008
Malling-Merton 111 is a good choice for the conditions described, but
there are other alternatives. MM.111 tends to delay onset of fruiting,
often similar to seedling stock, and tree size can be larger than most
of us want.
Faithful old Malling 7 is more tolerant than MM.111 of high soil
temperatures; induces earlier production; and tree size is usually
considerably smaller. On the other hand, anchorage can be poor, and M.7
is absolutely intolerant of fragipan.
It's early days, but Geneva 16 is worth looking at in the Great Plains.
We don't know its tolerance for high soil temperatures, but the G.16
root system is quite aggressive and it has thrived in some droughty
situations in NY. Trees on G.16 begin production very early, and tree
size is less than we get on M.7.
It would be appropriate to consider mulching. Permanent mulch can
conserve soil moisture and, perhaps more important, reduce midsummer
soil temperatures.
Dr. Jim Cummins
------------------------------
Subject: Cloudy cider (pectin haze?) - how to clear?
From: Daniel Chisholm <dmc@nbnet.nb.ca>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 13:20:56 -0400
Hi all,
I posted the following request to the Home Brew Digest last night. This
morning, a kind reader of HBD pointed out the Cider Digest to me, and
suggested that perhaps I ought to ask here too (For some reason, it
never occurred to me that there would be a Cider Digest! So I just
subscribed to Cider-Digest, and here I am, a member already! ;-)
So here's my query that I posted to HBD:
(Actually, since posting it, a guy on a "local" email list (Ottawa
brewers list) said that his cider just wouldn't clear, cold or warm,
then he put some gelatine in, and it cleared up beautifully. I don't
know though if he initially treated his with pectic enzyme - I did not
treat mine!)
I made a simple cider around the middle of October (fresh pressed apple
juice from a local orchard, plus some (rehydrated!;-) Lalvin-K1V-1116
yeast -- nothing else!).
The fermentation finished up a long time ago, but it steadfastly refuses
to clear. I've racked it once already (fermented in glass carboys,
racked into glass), hoping that the disturbance/mild air contact might
kick off a clearing, but no joy.
I'm now theorizing that the apple juice I had was probably made from
under ripe apples, and therefore too rich in pectin. The juice's
gravity was a surprisingly-low 1.036 (I was expecting upper 40s to mid
50s). I guess I should have bought some pectic enzyme, and let that
work away before pitching my yeast. Hey, I'm a beer guy, I don't
automatically generate a list of five additives to throw in at each
stage of the process! ;-)
Is there anything I can do now? I've got the usual assortment of
finings (Isinglass, bentonite, PolyClar, gelatine). Can pectic enzyme
help now, or is it way too late?
Also, the taste is rather thin and tart - not very impressive, but
probably not surprising given what I started with. Is there any way I
can make it stronger (taste-wise)? There's really not a whole lot of
flavour there, and I think that it's probably too late now to get fresh
apple juice anymore (if I could, I'd think about adding some
freeze-concentrated fresh apple juice). I'd rather not add spices (at
least not to all of it), but I suppose I'll do that if I must...
"Is My Cider Ruined"? ;-)
- --
- - Daniel
Fredericton, NB Canada
------------------------------
Subject: Sulphite & Racking
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Dec 2002 12:48:40 -0800
Pursuant to discussions here a few months ago, I have been doing some
experiments with sulphiting apple juice. I think I am getting a
"half-keeve:" Using about one Campden tablet per gallon, then chilling to
about 45 F or colder, the solids will settle completely out, leaving a
brilliantly clear juice.
As I've remarked here before, I cannot get a spontaneous ferment. I tried
again this year - let a batch of fresh-pressed juice sit in a carboy for a
week, at which time a few spots of mold began to appear, so I racked (all
the mold conveniently stuck to the sides of the carboy) and
sulphited. After about 10 days the solids settled, but I left it alone for
another week, and still no sign of activity. Gave up, racked off the
sludge, and pitched the Wyeast; after a couple of days a very slow ferment
has begun..
The sulphite really seems to take care of the mold problem, especially if I
mix it up with a little juice and pour it in slowly - maybe it is
deoxidizing the surface? Mold growth is largely dependent on oxygen, I think.
Seems like this is the bottom half of the keeving process; without any wild
yeast, no brown cap will form, but the settling works very well. I'm
curious as to whether this will accomplish the same result as a true keeve:
removing the nutrients and causing a slow, possibly incomplete fermentation.
Cheers,
Tim Bray
Albion, CA
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net
------------------------------
Subject: Racking
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Wed, 11 Dec 2002 11:45:05 -0800
Derrick has some interesting ideas and questions regarding racking. We
normally rack about 3 times. The first being very early in the fermentation
process to insure a uniform blend and remove the heavy sediments in the
juice. A second racking when fermentation is complete or nearly complete to
remove yeast hulls, followed by a third racking 6 or 8 weeks later which may
be combined with fining and filtering. You need to rack with care since any
addition of oxygen may accelerate the fermentation rather than slow it.
Another concern with racking is the loss of juice, you can however collect
the leavings in a separate container and allow them settle and rack off the
top juice.
When we visited some of the Somerset cider makers this summer I did not get
the feeling that they racked more than once or twice at the most. I have
been told that the Normandy cider makers may rack more often but my guess is
that the leavings are saved and distilled into calvados. It appears that
most French cider producers(large and small) have access to a still and this
provides them better management of their cider production. This synergy like
the cheese/ham mix in the Parma region of Italy is the sort of thing which
makes small farms work. In the UK I was told that there was only one
commercial still(not including the one in Hereford at the Cider Museum) for
apple brandy.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1009
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