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Cider Digest #0989
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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Subject: Cider Digest #989, 22 August 2002
Cider Digest #989 22 August 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Tim's MLF (Andrew Lea)
French 'keeved' fermentations (Andrew Lea)
Re: Cider Digest #988, 19 August 2002 (j/kbooth)
pH Meters - recommendations? ("Mark Ellis")
Re: "Frequin Rouge" (Scott Smith)
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Subject: Tim's MLF
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:00:40 +0100
Oh dear I'm sorry to hear Tim's experience was less happy than mine. But
I think it is true that if the cider is in any way faulty (other than
naturally high malic acid) at the beginning, then MLF will not help
it.
The other thing is that I wonder how good Tim's culture was. Fifteen or
twenty years ago the only MLF cultures available were universally
regarded as disastrous. Perhaps some of these are still on sale? I
would personally only go for a top quality culture from someone like
Lallemand or Chr Hansen, i.e. companies who are immersed in the subject
and have themselves contributed to the rapid strides in MLF technology
which have been made in the last decade.
On the basis of my (admittedly just one!) experiment this season I am
now totally committed to the idea of an MLF culture. But before that,
and on the basis of what I'd picked up from all manner of people in the
wine and cider industries in past years, I would have been very
negative. So, try again next year Tim, and I hope you have better luck!
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
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Subject: French 'keeved' fermentations
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 20:17:52 +0100
Tim wrote:
> Based on his (Derek's) summary and my own
> reading of Warcollier, it seems the critically important points are
> Temperature and Flora.
There is another vital point too which is not so obvious. And that is,
you must have a low nitrogen juice to keep the fermentation speed down.
This is achieved by (a) choice of 'vintage' cultivars which take up less
nitrogen than other trees and (b) maintaining low nitrogen inputs. The
presence of grazing cattle or sheep will also help by reducing the total
nitrogen level in the orchard. And of course you must not add any
vitamins or yeast nutrient to the juice. I have a piece called
'Nitrogen the Forgotten Element in Cidermaking' on my website.
Also, in an earlier posting, Charles wrote:
> I have a hypothesis that it's very dependent on both good pectinase activity
> and having lots of ripe pectins. I use a fraction of Cortlands ripened to
> the point where pressing is difficult - they get very slippery. But I
> suspect that those extra pectins, along with a fermentation that starts
> slowly, go a long way to successfully keeving the cider.
I would tend to agree with this too. I think you need enough pectin to
form an adequate 'clot' after the action of the enzyme (whether added or
not), to give the 'chapeau'. There seems to be a sort of 'critical
mass' here. That I think is one reason why traditionally the apples
were allowed to stand for a day or so between milling and pressing -
this allows more pectin to diffuse out of the cell walls into the juice
to do the job. The subject is very complex. It was studied by my old
boss Fred Beech at Long Ashton in the 1950's for his PhD - sadly and
inexplicably it was never properly written up in the scientific
literature for wider dissemination. I guess by that time keeving was in
its final throes in the UK anyway (apart from the mad craft hobbyists
like us who have 'invented' it again!).
Tim added:
> The temperature can be controlled - we can refrigerate if it isn't
> naturally cold enough - but that flora seems to be a matter of locality and
> luck. My sporadic attempts at spontaneous fermentation have been
> completely unsuccessful. And many people have reported uneven results with
> "wild" yeast fermentations. Yet the Normandy style sweet cider simply
> cannot be duplicated with wine yeasts, which invariably ferment to dryness
> (unless pasteurized or chemically inhibited, both of which adversely affect
> the flavor).
This is quite true - fortunately I and many people here in NorthWest
Europe do not find the natural occurence of benign fermenting yeasts to
be a problem. Perhaps there is something about the growth of cider
apples in a Mediterranean (Californian) climate which is less
favourable? The process is reliable enough in Northern France that a
large proportion of the mainstream French factory cider industry uses
'keeving' and refrigerated fermentation with natural yeast to produce
their commercial ciders. They have developed some interesting and
up-to-the minute technologies to allow them to do this but the
fundamental processes have not changed.
Andrew Lea
nr Oxford UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #988, 19 August 2002
From: j/kbooth <jameshbooth@worldnet.att.net>
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 09:40:55 -0400
Earlier this year I asked for advise regarding visiting
SW England and cider country with my wife and granddaughter.
We did end up in Somerset County staying at Wells and
were able to visit Heck's at Street (thats a town).
They have a number of single variety ciders they ferment
in old wooden barrels, and young Mr. Chris Heck was kind
enough to describe his cider processing and natural
fermentation.
At the Tourist Information office, I picked up a
pamphlet titled "Somerset Cider and Apple Juice" that
listed 28 cider makers with directions and several
paragraphs about each. The publication also listed
historical information and technical information about
apple and cider production.
Because of the wealth of SW England sight seeing, I didn't
attempt to take my wife and 11 yr old granddaughter to other
farms, but I did drink the local ciders where ever possible.
The farmhouse varieties were a bit funky for my taste and
I preferred to blend mainstream ciders with the funkier
farmhouse varieties. I didn't think the single variety
ciders improved the product but I brougt home a bottle
of Kingston Black to open at a Wassial Party I plan
mid January for my drinking buddies.
Thanks to those that responded earlier with suggestions.
wassail....jim booth
------------------------------
Subject: pH Meters - recommendations?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 17:25:03 +1000
G'day Crowd,
OK its time to get serious with pH . I have to source a
reliable and good value (read cheap as possible!) for money
meter. Anyone have opinions over best worse etc.
Thanks all.
Mark E. in Oz
****** http://www.Artisansrus.com *******
Promoting the Ancient Fermentable Arts
*******************************************
------------------------------
Subject: Re: "Frequin Rouge"
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 09:31:26 -0400
Thanks for the great post on your visit to Normandy, Derek. You made no
mention of the use of Calcium Chloride or KLERCIDRE or any other
keeve-assisting agent; is this true? I had thought that this was always
used.
The main thing I wanted to bring up was the "Frequin Rouge" variety of
apple. According to Bore and Fleckinger (the standard reference on
French cider apples, unfortunately out of print now), there are in fact
many apples known as Frequin Rouge. The Geneva repository for instance
seems to have two of them, "Frequin Rouge" and "Frequin" which has
alternate name "Frequin Rouge Amer". Bore and Fleckinger list only
"Frequin Rouge Petit". And, even though Frequin Rouge is on the
AOC-recommended list, they don't mention that in their listing of
Frequin Rouge Petit, making me think they could find no clear Frequin
Rouge (for all the other recommended varieties they mention them as such
in the listing). Any insights into this? Note there are many other
"Frequin" apples which are quite distinct and listed separately in Bore
and Fleckinger, e.g. Frequin Audievre.
Scott
> Subject: keeving
> From: Derek Bisset <derek_bisset@telus.net>
>
> These local varieties of cider apple in Normandy are
> numerous ; I
> have heard figures of 750 to 1000 varieties. However 20 or so only are
> recommended and commonly planted. Frequin Rouge is the most popular
> and is
> available in this country.
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End of Cider Digest #989
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