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Cider Digest #0974
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Subject: Cider Digest #974, 5 June 2002
Cider Digest #974 5 June 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: checklists (Terence L Bradshaw)
'Old Horse' and 'Ropiness' (Andrew Lea)
French cider apples (Scott Smith)
Yeasts? ("Mark Ellis")
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Subject: Re: checklists
From: Terence L Bradshaw <madshaw@innevi.com>
Date: Fri, 31 May 2002 14:08:27 -0400
>Hi All,
>
>I am developing a checklist of "must haves" of equipment and so on for the
>serious hobby fermenter!. I will, once we are done collecting submissions,
>run a rateable survey page so as to create a true sense of the most
>essential items that we should look at collecting in our winery/cider
>mill/brew house etc. It would be great if everyone contributes to this.
>Eventually it will be a part of the finished Artisansrus.com info site. Help
>me build you a resource!
>
>My essential items;
>
>Hydrometer
>Sodium Metabisulphite
>Yeast
>Plastic Fermenters
>Wine Press
>Cider Press
>
>What are yours?
Glass fermenters...as many as you have room for
Floor corker
Separate deep laundry-type sink with bottle washing attachment
Bottle washing attachment (worth mentioning twice)
eventually...a kegging system and as many kegs as you have room for
I currently have thirteen five gallon cornelius kegs which are currently in
use as secondary fermenters/bulk agers/clarifying vessels. They have
really opened up a lot of room for me. Plus, it's a lot easier to move
your unbottled goods in kegs, as I will have to when I eventually buy a
house this summer...
Terence Bradshaw
Pomona Tree Fruit Service
93 Stowe St
Waterbury, VT 05676
(802)244-0953
madshaw@innevi.com
The views represented by me are mine and mine only................
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Subject: 'Old Horse' and 'Ropiness'
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 03 Jun 2002 17:34:11 +0100
Pat Maloney wrote:
>
> An excellent explanation of why wood barrels are such good hosts for
> "brett," as it is affectionately known, can be found at the following URL:
> http://www.makewine.com/makewine/brett.html
>
It's an interesting reference and well worth reading, but I believe it's
far too dogmatic about the 'fact' that lactobacilli cannot produce
4-ethyl phenol and that 'only' Brettanomyces in a wine can do this. As
a flavour chemist I can tell you that 4-ethyl phenol is quite a common
taint in milk ('cowy'), in which lactobacilli are far more likely to be
the causative organisms than are Bretts. The generally accepted route
to 4-ethyl phenol in milk is by the breakdown of the phenolic amino acid
tyrosine.
In ciders, my colleagues Geoff Carr and Geoff Whiting, working at Long
Ashton over 30 years ago, showed that 4-ethyl phenol can be produced
from the common apple phenol p-coumaroyl quinic acid by the organism
then known as Lactobacillus pastorianus var quinicus but now known as L.
collinoides. This is a commonly encountered lactic organism in ciders,
although the organism which we prefer to carry out the ML fermentation
is Leuconostoc oenos which is a coccus, not a bacillus (or rod). L.
oenos maybe lacks that 4-ethyl phenol pathway and therefore the ability
to cause the 'old horse' taint. (Ref. Beech FW - J. Inst. Brewing. Vol
78 (1972) pp 477-491).
The point is that these metabolic pathways are ubiquitous in a wide
range of micro-organisms and it may be simplistic to point to just one
organism as the cause of a particular flavour. The extent of secondary
flavour metabolism will also depend on factors such as pH, nutrient
supply etc. Also, what is a taint at a high level may be part of the
desirable and complex flavour spectrum at a slightly lower level. For
instance, 4-ethyl phenol is to be sought after in ciders up to the point
at which it gives a slightly spicy character to the aroma, but not
beyond the point at which it becomes objectionally 'horse blanket'! And
it is naive to assume that just one chemical is involved - many closely
related structures will be acting synergistically on the human olfactory
system. The fascination of wines, ciders and beers in flavour chemistry
terms is how to balance these myriad pathways to achieve a complexity
which which we find harmonious!
And how coincidental that in the same Digest, Eli drew attention to
another product of another group of lactic acid bacteria - the slime
producers! Their ropy dextran gels are unwanted in a cider, to be sure,
but essential and encouraged if you're making yoghurt!!
Andrew Lea, nr Oxford UK
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: French cider apples
From: Scott Smith <scott@cs.jhu.edu>
Date: Tue, 4 Jun 2002 10:55:27 -0400
I am interested in growing some French cider apples along with the
English ones I have, but information is pretty hard to come by, in
particular on what ones have done well in various parts of North
America. I found a WSU study indicating Muscadet de Dieppe didn't give
a good yield for them
(http://mtvernon.wsu.edu/frt_hort/ciderapples.htm - mostly English
varieties described). The various French varieties grown in England
such as Nehou, Medaile d'Or, Michelin are an exception, there is a lot
of information about them and I am growing the first two.
So, I'd like to hear if anyone has French cider apples which are working
well (or poorly) for them in North America, both in terms of growing and
in terms of cider making. Below is my take on what the Geneva
repository has, which I assume more or less defines what people are
growing here. Marked "+" are ones I know were available this year from
nurseries in the US (nearly all Cummins). *'d varieties are on the
official AOC Normandy apples list, which means they are considered good
quality for Normandy.
I am going to grow Frequin Rouge for sure given that it seems to be
widely planted in France (and the fact that Dupont, my favorite French
cider, uses it). Reine des Pommes seems to be pretty popular at Farnum
Hill (but in France its not considered particularly high-quality by
some). Beyond that and the English-known French varieties, it looks
like a crap shoot to me. I tried to run down the book "Pommiers a
Cidre" by Bore and Fleckinger which describes many French varieties but
its now out of print, alas.
Cheers,
Scott
American Forestier (=Amer Forestier)
*+Bedan (not at Geneva? They have "Bedan des parts")
Binet Blanc
*+Binet Rouge
+Bramtot
*Cartigny
*Colozette (=Clozette)
Crollon
*+Domaine (=Domaines)
*Doux Normandie
Feuillard
Frequin (right name?)
Frequin Lacaille (right name?)
*+Frequin Rouge
Gros Bois
Jouveaux
Lande
Launette
*+Marin Onfroy
+Medaille d'Or
*+Metais (=Mettais?)
Mottais (=Mettais??)
+Michelin
+Muscadet Bernay
+Muscadet de Dieppe
+Muscadet de Lense
+Nehou
*Noel Deschamps (=Noel des champs)
Reine des Hatives
+Reine des Pommes
*Saint Martin
------------------------------
Subject: Yeasts?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Wed, 5 Jun 2002 22:21:17 +1000
G'day All,
I have been reading up a bit about selecting yeasts for cider, and there are
quite a lot of opposing opinions about going natural, or adding cultured
strains of yeasts whether they be wine or beer or even special cider yeasts.
Interested to read other peoples comments on their yeast selections good and
bad etc .
Thanks
Mark E. in OZ
**** http://www.Artisansrus.com ******
Promoting the Ancient Fermentable Arts
**************************************
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End of Cider Digest #974
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