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Cider Digest #0955
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #955, 8 March 2002
Cider Digest #955 8 March 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Are you selling trees/grafts/scionwood? (Cider Digest)
Commercial tribulations (Tim Bray)
re: Cider Space (Tim Bray)
Re: Acids in crab apples ("McGonegal, Charles")
re: Opinions about cider presses (Dick Dunn)
Anrew Lea? (motte@student.Ednet.NS.Ca)
Crab Apple Cider (Ciderist@aol.com)
Would my trees like some shade? ("Alex Paredez")
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Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Are you selling trees/grafts/scionwood?
From: cider@talisman.com (Cider Digest)
Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 09:01:07 -0700 (MST)
It is often difficult for new cider-makers to find sources of true cider
apple varieties...they can be found but it takes some hunting. I'm going
to see if the digest resources can help with that a little bit. (Yes, I
know there are some other sources, and no, I'm not trying to compete with
NAFEX!)
If you are selling (or giving away!) cider-apple or perry-pear tree stock
in any form, I would like to make your information available to readers of
the Cider Digest. The idea is that I will put a page on the web site where
I keep the Digest info and archives (www.talisman.com/cider, which will be
changing over this weekend), with info from anyone who submits it to me.
That information will include what you send me about what you have avail-
able, your contact information, etc., and a link to your web site if you
have one.
In the interest of maintaining the non-commercial nature of the digest as
far as possible, I won't be posting the actual information here on the
digest. I'll just post a reference to the web pages with the info.
PLEASE note that I don't want general information for good nurseries; I'm
only interested if a source specifically has cider apples or perry pears.
Also, first-hand information only please. Submit if you're a supplier;
don't submit info for somebody else.
I'm not limiting this to US suppliers. Just be clear on where you are and
to where you can ship, understanding that export/import regulations mostly
prevent plants crossing international boundaries.
OK, if this fits you so far: Please send the information (below) to
cider-request@talisman.com
DO NOT submit it to the digest. Use only the -request address. Tell me:
Name
Address
Telephone, if you do business by phone
Email, if you do business or take questions by email
URL, if you have your own web page
What forms do you have available? (bare-root trees, bench grafts, scion
wood?)
What varieties do you have available? (please keep pears and apples in
separate lists)
Where can you ship?
What are your limits on dates of shipping? What is your order deadline?
- ---
Cider Digest cider-request@talisman.com
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor Boulder County, Colorado USA
------------------------------
Subject: Commercial tribulations
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 14:57:13 -0800
>For what it's worth, Brian Black gave me permission to include his
>'valediction' from this Digest on my website when his business closed.
>Is that what you mean?
No, I have read that before. While it has much useful information, it was
his offer to provide a copy of his business plan that really caught my
attention. Unfortunately I waited too long to send a SASE and got an odd
reply, to the effect that his wife said "No More!" :-(
I'm planning to go into limited production of cider in the near future, and
trying to sort out the US laws governing such activity... It is very
complicated, as the law apparently treats still ciders differently than
sparkling. (A LOT different, if my interpretation is correct.) I am
waiting for more information from ATF.
Once I figure out what hoops my government wishes me to jump through, then
I can figure out whether the business will be worth the effort!
Cheers,
Tim
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net
------------------------------
Subject: re: Cider Space
From: Tim Bray <tbray@mcn.org>
Date: Tue, 05 Mar 2002 15:03:23 -0800
>Now, Tim (and anyone else who was wondering), is that way more blather than
>you expected or wanted?
No, that's helpful... now I know! Thanks.
Also, put me on the list for suppliers of scion wood. I have over 100
varieties of apples growing now, and many of them are generating excess
wood. I have a few bundles in the fridge right now, if anyone is
interested. Also, I still have the Bedan and Stoke Red that don't seem to
like my low-chill climate, and I would be willing to dig and ship them as
bare-roots if anyone wants them. If they follow the same schedule as last
year, they will be dormant for quite a while yet...
Tim
Albion Works
Furniture, Clothing, and Accesories
For the Medievalist!
www.albionworks.net
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Acids in crab apples
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <cpmcgone@uop.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 07:43:11 -0600
Andrew wrote:
> The pyruvate could then get metabolised to off-flavours by ML bacteria -
interesting!!
> Charles do you have any more info on this one?
Unfortunately, no! I included ascorbic acid because I had seen it in
analyses I've done, and on a isomeric analogy to citric acid - ascorbic acid
is also a 6 carbon carboxylic acid. My catalog here has it drawn out as
heteroatomic ring (a ring with atoms other than just carbon) - but it looks
a lot like the way glucose and sugars are drawn - I would suspect the ring
is just one conformation of several.
I'm curious about the acid profile of crabs from just the same observation
you made about perry pears - crabs may not be M.pumila, or may be hybrids.
I'm not sure that the other species would always have the same acids.
> So a survey might be interesting but I wouldn't hold your breath!
Well, maybe this summer I can clear some bench space a work, and set up my
HPLC again. :-)
------------------------------
Subject: re: Opinions about cider presses
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2002 14:52:02 -0700 (MST)
"Alex Paredez" <aparedez@stanford.edu> wrote in CD 954:
> ...I have a
> small basket press now, and I really dislike the effort it takes to turn the
> screw, so I am leaning towards some kind of basket press with a hydraulic
> jack, but am concerned about hydraulic leaks and whether or not too much
> pressure would be applied...
I don't think there's any such thing as "too much pressure" for the _apples_;
it's a matter of designing the _press_ to be strong enough. That shouldn't
be too hard, as you can look for analogous designs in machine-shop presses.
See how they're made and see what size of uprights and cross-members they
use relative to the hydraulic cylinder size and pressure.
I believe that the grinder deserves as much attention as the press.
[For anyone who's new to this stuff: you _must_ "grind" the apples into a
coarse pulp before pressing. You can't press whole apples.]
All my observation says that a good grind and a moderately powerful press
is better than a poor grind that leaves larger chunks of fruit coupled with
a brute of a press. If I could fix one thing with my screw press setup
(Happy Valley Ranch), it would be to replace the grinder.
As for hydraulic leaks, one of the approaches I saw in some mid-size older
presses in England is to make the upper plate of the press fixed and drive
the lower plate up into it. That way you can put the cylinder beneath the
press mechanism. The disadvantage of this is that the juice-collecting
part of the press moves vertically, so you want to be sure that however
you drain the juice off, it stays "connected".
The amount of concern for leaks depends on the type of hydraulic system.
If it's a simple hand-operated single cylinder (like a bottle jack), it's
uncommon to have anything more than a tiny seepage, and I can't see
worrying about it. But if you have a separate pump and cylinder, then
you've got hoses and fittings...so either mount them out of the path of
the fruit/juice or do annual maintenance _before_ pressing day.
I think hydraulic wins hands-down in terms of effort and speed. Use a hand
screw press if you're showing off traditional techniques or if that's all
you've got, but if you're getting at all serious, go hydraulic. (Do as I
say, not as I do, alas...:-)
> ...3) How much pressure does
> a screw type press generate and what would be the appropriate size hydraulic
> jack?...
Based on our experiment last fall (see CD 932) with a pneumatic bladder
in my normally-hand-screw press, and doing some rough calculations on the
active area, I think we got about the same yield at around 2 tons (40 psi
on 100 sq in [US units], very roughly) with the bladder, as serious cranking
on the screw would have done. Maybe the screw could do a little more than
that; I don't know. I started trying to calculate the screw effect based
on lever arm and force applied, until I realized I had no way to figure what
the screw friction would do.
Anyway, all but the smallest hydraulic jacks will give you more than 2
tons. By the time you get to a jack large enough that the piston travel
is sufficient, you should have plenty of pressure.
>...4) Are there any features I should try and include or any pitfalls I
> should avoid.
Set up your overall grinding/pressing arrangement so that "gravity is your
friend" (as much as possible)--whenever apples/juice/pulp move downward,
make sure it's for a reason, and don't arrange to lift things unless you
really need to. Once you get set up and you get a good year for apples,
you will likely be surprised at how much mass you move from one place to
another. The more steps that involve manual lifting, the worse you'll feel
at the end of the day.
Be sure the press has enough travel. (Think about having a partial load
at the end of the pressing day, where you might end up driving the press
plates almost together.)
Your notes suggested that you already realize this, but: Keep the juice
away from metal, except for stainless steel. Ordinary steels or iron in
particular will turn apple juice an ugly dark green and give a nasty taste.
Copper, I am told, gives a more pleasant shade of green but does the cider
no more good than iron.
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Mr. Natural says, "Get the right tool for the job."
------------------------------
Subject: Anrew Lea?
From: motte@student.Ednet.NS.Ca
Date: Thu, 07 Mar 2002 07:35:24 -0400 (AST)
Could you post Andrew Lea's web page address?
Alos thanks to the many people who e-mailed me regarding Perry Pears.
Thanks.
Elayne Mott
countrymouse@totalmail.co,
------------------------------
Subject: Crab Apple Cider
From: Ciderist@aol.com
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:04:39 EST
Greetings Everyone,
Back in digest # 951 Bob Capshaw asked about straight crab apple cider, seems
like I read somewhere, it was called Verjuice in England long ago.
In '98 I found five Siberian type crabapple trees growing in a row next to a
street in NE Portland, I had been on the lookout for crabs for some time as a
possible source of tannin for my cider. Each of the five were different, but
all were small (from nickel to quarter size) and sharp and two were quite
bitter. A couple of the trees were loaded and I picked a five gallon bucket
of each. It was a chore grinding them up fine enough to squeeze, I wound up
putting them through the grinder on my press and then pounding them in a
stainless tub with the end of a six foot long piece of 2x4 lumber. I got
about 2 gallons of very sweet, tart, bitter juice, my hydrometer measured it
at 1080 SG or 20% sugar, still the highest I've ever measured. I filled a 4L
wine jug and put in a packet of Champagne yeast. After 3 months it had
cleared nicely and the gravity had dropped to 1004, I filled 5 champagne
bottles and primed with a half teaspoon of sugar. It (batch # 21) was pretty
sharp to start with but after a year had mellowed a bit and was quite good I
thought. The following season I made a similar batch (# 35) with Cote des
Blanc's yeast, it was also good after a year or so. Both batches were wine
like with a kind of smokey bacon taste found in some Kingston Black ciders.
Unfortunately I haven't found the time to go and pick those trees again, and
two of them have since been cut down.
Historically crabs were commonly used in cider to add acid and tannin and I
am currently collecting crab apple varieties for this purpose. The best cider
I have yet made (# 32) was 1/3 Virginia Crab.
Russell Farr inquired about priming with fruit juices and how much to use to
avoid bottle bombs.
I have been using frozen apple juice concentrate for priming sugar for some
time, I don't know why other fruit juices wouldn't work just as well, sounds
like entertainment to me. Just add the juice to the bulk cider until the
gravity reaches 1000-1002 it should work fine.
Shaun Shepherd
Portland Oregon
------------------------------
Subject: Would my trees like some shade?
From: "Alex Paredez" <aparedez@stanford.edu>
Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2002 23:26:46 -0800
Hello all,
According to the advice I got from this digest, information gathered on
the internet, and the varieties available on suitable rootstock, I ordered
the following trees 2 of each:
Roxbury Russet
Golden Russet
Browns Apple
Yarlington Mill
Ellis Bitter
Michelin
Domaines
I have no idea what will grow well in my area which I have determined to be
Zone 9. It gets very warm in the summer 90-100F and I have two locations on
my property to plant the trees. There is a section where we have a double
row of 15 year old Eucalyptus trees planted North-South on the West side of
our property following our fence line for the first half of the property and
an open field in the back. If I plant the apple trees on the East side of
the eucalyptus trees and in the same orientation they will get a little
afternoon shade and some wind block. The other location is in the back of
the property which is an open field. It seems like it would be a good thing
to plant my apple trees near the eucalyptus trees, but I just wanted to ask
if anyone can foresee a problem with this? Also, does it make a difference
if I make one long row or two short rows as far as pollination is concerned?
Thanks for any input,
- -Alex
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #955
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