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Cider Digest #0984
From: cider-request@talisman.com
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To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #984, 31 July 2002
Cider Digest #984 31 July 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #983, 29 July 2002 ("squeeze")
re: Idea for cool fermenting cellar (DrewZimmer@aol.com)
Plastic vs stainless? (Andrew Lea)
Tannin (Andrew Lea)
Fools rush in where angels fear to tread! (Andrew Lea)
Re: Sulphur ("Mark Ellis")
Jonathan Apples ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Brown Snout ("Richard & Susan Anderson")
Re: Cider Digest #983, 29 July 2002 (SWStacy@cs.com)
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Subject: Re: Cider Digest #983, 29 July 2002
From: "squeeze" <squeeze@mars.ark.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 09:55:51 -0700
Regarding Davids question about tannin toxicity: moderation is the best
policy in all things! The primary problem w/ tannins is for ruminants - it
kills off their rumen bacteria. In humans, the only thing I've ever come
across is that it binds w/ iron, decreasing the absorption of it, and
potentiates the antibiotic activity of various things such as echinacea.
Considering that tannins are very closely associated w/ caffine and that
most people consume a range of caffine containing foods and beverages, the
"excessive" intake of tannin will probably require an excessive intake of
something like chocolate, coffee or tea, and in tea it can be "deactivated"
by milk [not a recommended additive for your high tannin cider!].
Regarding Sheryls question about planting, read over this page:
http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/7B-orch.html and prep the spot well before you
plant - the tree needs good soil to rapidly grow strong roots into, not
feed washing down from above. If the tree is growing happily in the pot,
it can be planted now, or kept over until dormant to allow even better prep
of the planting space - it will be the best investment you can make for the
lifetime of the tree, and once planted the opportunity is gone.
Bill <http://mars.ark.com/~squeeze/>
------------------------------
Subject: re: Idea for cool fermenting cellar
From: DrewZimmer@aol.com
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:02:32 EDT
I made a fermenting room based on Scott's idea out of a basement closet under
the stairwell. I removed all the dry wall and insulation from the
underground concrete walls and put insulation between all the studs on the
interior walls and ceiling. I also added 1-1/2" foam over the studs to form
the inside walls. The closet door got 2" foam on the inside. The room works
quite well as I have space for all my fermenters (13-5gal. carboys) and all
my bottled storage, although the low ceiling at the back makes things cozy.
As far as temperatures go, I'm afraid that Scott won't be seeing the magic
41F. My records show a low temp. of 55F in January and a high of 63F in
August. I do live in Seattle where our climate is milder than Baltimore, but
I think getting below 50F won't happen. I'm planning to buy a very small air
conditioner to chill my closet to 40F-45F.
Cider made at 55F is usually very good, the early apples ferment a bit too
quickly, but the late ones seem to ferment slowly enough. I do keeving in a
15 gallon plastic garbage can in a refrigerator with all the shelves removed
then move the clear juice to the closet to ferment.
Drew Zimmerman
Seattle
------------------------------
Subject: Plastic vs stainless?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 19:55:38 +0100
Chad wrote:
> I have found good sources of stainless 5 gallon Cornelious kegs and 15 gallon
> removable top food grade plastic barrels. Would anyone recommend either of
> these for fermenters, and if so which?
If I had the choice I would ferment in the plastic and store in the
Cornelius (which is what I often do). Reason being that it's easier to
clean out the tank of a bulk fermentation than lots of smaller ones and
you get proportionally less wastage from lees. The air which diffuses
through the plastic walls will not matter during fermentation, but may
be prejudicial to your cider on long-term storage. For that, air is best
kept out and the SS scores on that account. Also this gives you small
handleable batches of cider which you can broach sequentially as you
need it, while preserving the remainder intact.
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Tannin
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:41:11 +0100
David queried:
> excessive tannin consumption over a prolonged period can be
>'detrimental to health'?
If you are a pig subsisting entirely on acorns, or a ruminant on poor
high-tannin browse such as certain wild forms of wattle, clover or
sorghum, there may be some truth in this! Humans in really straightened
circumstances who have to scavenge for food may also be affected. The
'tannin' lowers the digestibility of the plant protein, and in some
older literature it was held to be carcinogenic though there is no good
evidence for this. But all the modern literature is now encouraging us
to consume more 'tannin' as phenolic antioxidants e.g. in red wine and
cider beacuse it's good for us and may prevent heart disease and cancer!
It is true that there are many different types of 'tannin', and the
details of their chemistry fill many a textbook, but for well-fed humans
in the western world its toxicity is a non-issue. It is self-limiting
anyway, because the astringency of the 'tannin' is enough to put you off
the food before you consume too much (have you ever tried eating a
pomegranate shell or eating the grape seed in preference to the
grape?).
Andrew Lea
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Fools rush in where angels fear to tread!
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 20:43:03 +0100
Mark L wrote:
> I too am interested in a conversation about this
> phenomenon (sulfurous cider) since I have had
> that happen this year too and posted an almost
> identical question a few weeks ago -- and got no
> replies!
One possible reason for the lack of replies is that the subject is
hugely complex and it's almost impossible to answer at a distance. It
needs a sample of the cider to taste and to analyse, together with a
full fermentation history. Even then, a definitive answer may elude
even the best! Together with a number of professional colleagues, I
spent a significant part of last year in preparation for an insurance
case worth $5M in which a sulphur-tainted cider was at issue. We and the
other side did $0000's worth of lab and literature work. The trial
collapsed half way through and the parties settled out of court simply
because it was evident that neither side would ever have got a
definitive answer as to why it happened!
Any good winemaking textbook (e.g. those by Boulton et al, Zoecklein et
al, Ough, Rankine etc.) will cover the main causes of sulphurous taints
in wines - most of those are the same for cider. When describing the
taint, you have to be specific is it (a) sulphidic like rotten eggs? (b)
sulphitic like SO2? (c) organic sulphur like cabbage? (d) thiol stink
like vulcanised rubber? (e) mercaptan like a skunk or badger?. All
these types of sulphur taint may have different origins but,
confusingly, may interconvert in certain circumstances. They can be
yeast related, SO2 related, nutrient related, spray related, metal
related, or any combination of these or none at all.
The simplest one to deal with is the 'rotten egg' smell produced by
yeast, which can reduce added sulphiTe to sulphiDe. If a small pinch of
copper sulphate added to the cider kills the taint, then that's the
cause, which can be prevented in future by choosing a better yeast
and/or making sure it has plenty of nutrients. The subject is vastly
too complex to cover in a brief note to the Digest. Anyone who wants to
get a perspective on this one has to read the winemaking textbooks!
Andrew Lea,
nr Oxford UK
- ----------------------------------
Visit the Wittenham Hill Cider Page at
http://www.cider.org.uk
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Sulphur
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 11:58:58 +1000
Subject: re: sulphurous
From: Bob and Winnie <natvwine@cut.net>
Date: Tue, 23 Jul 2002 11:40:32 -0600
Mark, were the apples sprayed with chemicals?
In my experience, this is the most commonnly overlooked source of
sulphur in musts.
Bob
- ----------
Hi Bob,
Actually the farm is practically organic and very little spray is used
except to handle codlin maybe 2-3 times per season, in conjuction with
the hormone ties.
Both varieties were growing side by side.
Sampled the new cider the other night and actually quite pleased with
the taste. Differences are quite marked with the LW having a
sweetish "floral?!" taste, whilst the GS is clean with plenty of acid
bite. They both fermented to dry 1.000 FG using bayannus yeast
Not bad really for non-cider apples, so I am reasonably pleased.
The sulphur nose is still very heavy in the GS batch, whereas in the LW
it is barely there at all.
Hopefully I will get my pH meter shortly so I can be a little more
scientific about it all. I cannot read those test strips fot the life
of me!
Anyway, enough for now.
Regards
Mark E. in OZ
- ---
Promoting the Ancient Arts of Fermentation
http://www.artisansrus.com
- ---
------------------------------
Subject: Jonathan Apples
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:56:23 -0700
By all means make some cider from your Jonathans. They should have
sufficient acidity and sugar for a sound cider. Use only the best fruit. The
PVC containers are good for fermentation, and the stainless containers are
good for storage. Invest in some essentials like a hydrometer. Since the
Jonathans will have good acidity levels you may want to look for a
bittersweet rather than a bittersweet for a tannin balance, or perhaps even
add a sweet. Above all, enjoy the journey.
------------------------------
Subject: Brown Snout
From: "Richard & Susan Anderson" <baylonanderson@rockisland.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 09:56:25 -0700
I am surprised that the Brown Snouts would make a good single varietal
cider. We have a number of them which were planted inadvertently because the
nurseryman who produced them did not know the difference between Brown Snout
and Browns Apple. They are a nice mild bittersweet, easy to train, crop well
etc. The juice however has a Ph of about 4.00 and at least from my point of
view seem to make it a good candidate for a single varietal cider. Are these
apples true to type?
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #983, 29 July 2002
From: SWStacy@cs.com
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 23:28:02 EDT
Yes,
tannins are not good for you. But also drinking 50 gallons of water would
also be toxic to you. I think the main thing to be aware of is that you are
drinking tannins in cider, beer, and wine. But these levels are fairly small
and insignificant. The excess cancer risk is there but not overly excessive.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #984
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