Copy Link
Add to Bookmark
Report
Cider Digest #1000
From: cider-request@talisman.com
Errors-To: cider-errors@talisman.com
Reply-To: cider@talisman.com
To: cider-list@talisman.com
Subject: Cider Digest #1000, 31 October 2002
Cider Digest #1000 31 October 2002
Forum for Discussion of Cider Issues
Dick Dunn, Digest Janitor
Contents:
Re: Cider Digest #999, 24 October 2002 (Bill Rhyne)
Re: Acidity and sharpness ("McGonegal, Charles")
newby question (DLebeck@aol.com)
Re: Cider Digest #999, 24 October 2002 (MIUKAT@aol.com)
Whither UK cider? (Andrew Lea)
Re: cider kit (JPullum127@aol.com)
First Batch! ("Jeremy")
Drought Tolerance Info? ("Mark Ellis")
issue 1000 retrospective (Dick Dunn)
Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com.
Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests.
When subscribing, please include your name and a good address in the
message body unless you're sure your mailer generates them.
Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #999, 24 October 2002
From: Bill Rhyne <theo9us@yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 24 Oct 2002 23:52:34 -0700 (PDT)
Re: cider in China
Hello to all from QiQiHaer, Heilingjiang, China in the
northeast of China near the Russian border. Brrrrrr!
This is Bill Rhyne and I am teaching here one of
periodic teaching trips to China. I was in Harbin last
Saturday and they had a little street fair going on
with new products. There was a company called Gembol
that makes apple cider and wine from apples grown in
Yantai, Shandong Province near Qingdao on the east
coast of China. The alcohol levels went from around 3%
to 12% for the wine version. They are packaged in
clear beer bottles with colorful and attactive labels.
One product called "Pino's" has a "his" and "hers"
label. They also had a 750ml wine bottle that was
..."coffee and apple cider". I didn't try it as it
didn't sound appealing to me. As for the other ciders,
the sales person handed an open bottle of Pino's for
me to sip and try. Talk about a leap of faith or
stupidity, I sipped a little bit while thinking about
who had the previous sip. Anyway, it tasted okay,
sweet a little, not very tart or interesting, the
color was very clear, and there was a little bit of an
off-flavor in the finish. China grows 1/3 of the
world's apples so I have been promoting the concept of
cider in my classes so it looks like someone may have
passed the story on to someone. Bulmer's is making
Strongbow in the same province through a joint venture
with a local brewery. I don't know how successful they
are yet. Well, that is all for now from the roving
cidermaker from Sonoma.
Bill Rhyne
Rhyne Cyder
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Acidity and sharpness
From: "McGonegal, Charles" <cpmcgone@uop.com>
Date: Fri, 25 Oct 2002 07:58:46 -0500
Stefan Berggren writes:
I wanted to bring the acidity down (sweetness up) to counter the sharpness,
so I added a pound of honey...
Ah, Stefan. I think you will find that this is the source of most of the
science, art, mystery and magic of cider making. And that if you ask 3
cider makers, you'll get at _least_ 4 answers. I'll wager that it generates
a bit of discussion here on the digest.
But first things first - sharpness and sweetness are independent variables.
They are not conserved quantities, and you can increase and decrease both
together. I find that _perception_ of tartness is some complex ratio of
sugar and acid content.
There are things you can do to _conserve_ sweetness during a fermention.
Much art and magic goes into that, since the traditional method essentially
tries to achieve a stuck fermentation at just the right sugar level. You
could also add unfermentable sugars (like malto-dextrins). Purists might
shudder a bit at that.
You can add sugar post-ferment, but you have to do something to prevent
re-fermenation. You can pasturuze, sterile filter, or chemically inhibit
re-fermentation. The first two take equipment and good technique, the third
is easy, but introduces bubble-gum like flavors. (and purists _really_
shudder at it)
You can sometimes reduce acidity with a malo-lactic fermentation. I should
say that a MLF _always_ reduces acidity, but isn't always spontaneous, and
can be occasionally hard to make happen even with commercial MLF cultures.
Adding honey to the 'apfel most' is likely to yield more alcohol and bring
you right back to that dry cider you started with, rather than making a
sweeter cider.
Charles McGonegal
------------------------------
Subject: newby question
From: DLebeck@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 19:46:22 EDT
Greeting All.
My name is Doug and I am new to the list as well as cider maken' I really
love the fresh stuff and have only had 1 really good hard cider (good in my
humble opinion). So, being the DIYS type, I decided to give cider (and mead
and beer and...) a try. My first batch of cider went in Monday. It started
out slow but then really kicked in. Today we tried to warm the house up a bit
and all of a sudden the floating stuff on top of my cider fell to the bottom.
It is still bubbling vigorously, but what happened to the floating yeast or
what ever it is? The temp went from about 70 to 76 =/= according to the
stick-on thermometer. Any help is greatly accepted.
Doug
------------------------------
Subject: Re: Cider Digest #999, 24 October 2002
From: MIUKAT@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Oct 2002 23:51:56 EDT
hi, my name is christina, and the fall weather in ny has me thinking about
making cider. i've only messed around with mead a few times, but as i
understand it, cider is bottled in beer bottles with caps and can be drunk
after 6 weeks? true cider is made with only pure apple juice and no sugar
added, right? with 5-6% alcohol. do you use an all purpose yeast such as
montrachet, and please let me know if i am wrong about anything, and any tips
anyone has. i only plan on making maybe a gallon each of 3 varieties, as my
2.5 carboy is busy for the next few months with strawberry mead. i was
thinking of plain, cranberry and ginger spice. i am glad i found this list
and hope to contribute my experiments. i live in an apartment in nyc and
don't have an apple press, anyone have experience with a juicer, (if the
apples were cored and maybe peeled). thanks, chrisitna
------------------------------
Subject: Whither UK cider?
From: Andrew Lea <andrew_lea@compuserve.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Oct 2002 09:35:51 +0000
Congratulations to Dick and the Digest's previous janitor in getting us to
1000 issues. I've found it informative, provocative and helpful by turns,
since I first got involved at around issue #630 some six years ago. I
always recommend new cidermakers to join up, to ask questions and to seek
advice on the Digest - I know that's worked well for many.
Dick asked me for a few words about the state of UK cider in late 2002.
The way I see it, UK cider is at the crossroads. But then, looking back
over its history for the last 300 years or so, it's nearly always been at
the crossroads! The main challenge for cider today, as more than once in
the past, is to secure itself a new identity.
Why is this? In the UK during the early part of the 20th century, cider was
transformed from farm labourers' tipple to a family drink, a safe and light
alternative to a beer or a wine. To my parent's generation, born at the end
of the First World War, it was a cosy but unexciting part of their lives.
Then, from the late 1970's onwards, cider was deliberately re-positioned
as an alternative to the new high alcohol and low flavoured lager beers,
targetted at 18-30 year old drinkers in pubs and clubs. Now cider, too,
became high in alcohol and low in flavour. The 'white ciders' introduced in
the 80's were the ultimate expression of this trend. Sales rocketed, and
the manufacturers and their shareholders were happy. Even the introduction
of excise duty did not check its growth. But, by the millenium, most
commercial cider had lost all resemblance to what it once had been. It was
'dumbed down' beyond all recognition. True, there were a very few who
continued to carry the torch of tradition and quality, but they had no
supermarket listings or pub distribution - in volume terms and in the eyes
of the public, they had no presence.
In the last couple of years, I perceive that things may have changed. Deep
discounting in the UK drinks trade has driven the major brands into
financial trouble. Having created a style of cider which may have been
fitted for its time, the times moved on. Mainstream cider from our large
producers is no longer hip or cool amongst the young, and it's unappealing
to their elders. And therein lies the challenge and the opportunity. From
the ashes may arise the phoenix. Smaller, savvier manufacturers are eyeing
up the market opportunities. When I tour my local supermarket now, I find
brands which only a couple of years ago were unknown outside their
production areas. Now they have national listing. They have new USPs
('unique selling points' in market-speak!) - maybe organic, single
varietals or ciders from a defined locality . They are not the cheapest on
the shelf and they never will be. They are interesting to drink, they have
an identity and they have a presence. They are not the dumbed down
alcoholic sugar-waters of the past 30 years, but they are not the foul
acetic scrumpies of the farmyard barrel brigade either. And that's where
the future for UK cider must lie. If the new producers can maintain their
standards while increasing volumes, and if they can hold up their prices to
give them the return they need to maintain that quality, then there is
hope. It will be difficult, because cider now needs to be re-invented. But
there seem to be people out there who can do it.
UK cider, like I said, is at a crossroads. At a crossroads, by definition,
there are new tracks for the traveller to follow. The high road to quality
is the one that interests me, and I see some enterprising folk setting out
in that direction already. I salute them and I wish them well!
Andrew Lea
------------------------------
Subject: Re: cider kit
From: JPullum127@aol.com
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 11:09:11 EST
i really liked the ciders i had in normandy a few years ago. i've checked
with local orchards but they don't have the right apples for hard cider they
tell me. anyway i bought a 1.5 kg. can of english concentrate made by
cwe(continental wine exporters norwitch england) and some wyeast cider yeast.
can anyone please tell me how to get the best result from this kit? i am
very experienced at beer brewing but this would be first cider. thanks
marc pullum, omaha, nebr
------------------------------
Subject: First Batch!
From: "Jeremy" <jeremy@uploadjoe.com>
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2002 13:10:32 -0700
Hey Gang,
I just put my first batch of cider in the fermentor last night. I bought 5
gallons of sweet cider un pasteurized and without any preservatives. I kept
refrigerator until about 6 hours before I pitched my yeast (had to warm it
up to room temp)
About 3 hours before I pitched I threw in 2 teaspoons of pectic enzyme. I
pitched a 500 ml starter made from a package of Muntons Ale yeast. This
morning the airlock had a burst of activity about every 8 seconds.
5 gallons ^Sweet~ Cider
500 ml Yeast starter (Muntons)
2 Teaspoons of Pectic Enzyme
2 1/2 lbs of Raisins
I am planning to rack after the primary fermentation has finished and let it
sit in secondary for a 2-3 months then bottle.
Should I bother to try Malo-Lactic inoculation? I am looking for information
on this. Any good websites?
I had a friend that made cider in a similar manner? he basically just let it
ferment for what seemed to be a couple months then he put it into secondary
for a ^a couple~ of months. I think he said the whole process took 6 months.
Any thoughts / help would be great!
Thanks,
Jeremy
------------------------------
Subject: Drought Tolerance Info?
From: "Mark Ellis" <mark@artisansrus.com>
Date: Tue, 29 Oct 2002 07:36:11 +1100
G'day All,
Here in Southern Oz we are experiencing pretty much drought
conditions, and have for the last couple of years. Looks like our
farm will get only 1, maybe 2 irrigation runs this season so we
are not expecting much in the way of fruit this year unless it
buckets down a few times over the next month.
So I think as orchardists we need to be a bit proactive in
seeking to plant drought tolerant orchards in our drier areas. I
expect the situation might be similar in some south western US
areas as well.
The US National Germplasm Repository
http://www.ars-grin.gov/gen/apple.html have done some interesting
work in sending teams to Kazakhstan (the wild apple birthplace)
and collecting seed and scions. Some apples they collected came
from rainfall as low as 300ml or 12"!!!
Does anyone have info, sources or links to good resources in this
regard?
Thanks for any pointer in this regard.
Cheers
Mark E. in OZ
http://www.Artisansrus.com
Promoting the Ancient Fermentable Arts
------------------------------
Subject: issue 1000 retrospective
From: rcd@talisman.com (Dick Dunn)
Date: Wed, 30 Oct 2002 08:38:06 -0700 (MST)
Cider Digest issue 1000...nothing magic about the number, but a good excuse
for a retrospective or for taking a look at where cider stands today.
_ _ _ _ _
The Cider Digest: I'm not writing this as digest janitor, but here are a
few indicative numbers. Of course, the CD is only one cider resource.
The CD currently has 563 subscribers. For comparison, the Mead-Lover's
Digest (MLD) has 1230 subscribers. In 1/98 (oldest info easily at hand) the
comparable numbers are CD: 534; MLD: 997. The numbers bounce +/- 10 from
week to week, but taking the above as fairly accurate, MLD is growing at
about 4.5%/year while CD is growing just over 1%/year. Adding a mere half-
dozen subscribers a year says we're barely holding our own.
CD is worldwide, but US-biased. I believe lack of growth indicates little
growth in cider interest in the US. The rest here is about cider in the US.
_ _ _ _ _
Commercial cider in the US: One of the difficulties in promoting interest
in cider is the state of national-brand commercial cider. It's not merely
lack of good cider in liquor stores; it's presence of poor cider (bland,
too-fizzy, sweet) with a gimmick, alco-pop, get-your-date-drunk image.
Contrast: mead lovers only have to convince people to try something they've
never had before. Cider-lovers first have to convince people the insipid
mass-market commercial cider they had isn't what cider is all about.
Go back as much as 10 years; you find articles predicting cider as the next
beverage trend, ready to go upscale and find discerning palates (plus a
"price point" that would allow quality cider). It was supposed to follow
either "boutique" wineries (Kingston Black as the next Chardonnay?:) or the
microbrewery revolution. It didn't happen, and an exposition of the reasons
could fill a couple issues of the CD. OK, an optimist would say "It hasn't
happened yet"...but really...we've seen the predictions for ten years??
There are wonderful local/regional ciders in the US, but they fight an uphill
battle for distribution. First, the US "three-tier" distribution system
(which is literally cast into law in many states) is heavily weighted against
the small producer. Second, state liquor laws tend to be protectionist. The
wine industry has successfully broken down some of those barriers with
"reciprocal trade" agreements among states, but this hasn't helped most cider
makers because they're in non-wine-producing states. Plus, cider production
is not enough $ to get a legislator's attention.
_ _ _ _ _
Hobby/craft cider: Just as it was predicted that commercial cider would
take off and find a high-end market, there was a hope that serious home/
small-scale cider would follow in the same way that microbreweries and
homebrewing grew together and helped one another...and that homebrewing
organizations, clubs, and shops would pick up cider as well. It didn't
work; cider is too different. Oh, cider is present, but it's an oddity.
It is seasonal; it depends on ingredients which are unavoidably variable; it
isn't recipe-oriented. It's of minimal interest to shops because there are
no serious ongoing supply purchases: Homebrewers buy grain/malt, hops, and
yeast. Mead-makers buy large amounts of honey. Cider-makers *might* buy
yeast.
I'm of the opinion that hobby-level cider is not helped at all by being
associated with homebrewing, and that it may even be hurt by it. It's
different in fundamental ways. (This really hits home about the third or
fourth time a good homebrewer asks, "So how long should I boil the juice?")
_ _ _ _ _
So...do I think it's hopeless? Is real cider doomed to obscurity for our
lifetimes? I don't think so or I wouldn't be here! But we've got a long
way to go, we're not moving very fast, and it's not at all clear how we
can pick up the pace.
Let's revisit this about issue 1500 of the CD and see how wrong I was!
- ---
Dick Dunn rcd@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
...Without love in the dream, it'll never come true.
------------------------------
End of Cider Digest #1000
*************************
